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LCP
06-30-2013, 09:44 PM
I read a thread a few weeks ago that had information about fin doseage, ie .25mg being just as effective as 1mg, and it was also talking about how often DHT levels need to be treated, I believe it was at least every three days. Does anyone have a link to that thread? Since then it seems that several people on here have switched to a .25mg doseage.

I just got a Rx for Fin on Friday, I would like to read it over again so that I can take the small effective doseage possible.

Unrelated question, has anyone on here started taking Fin around the same time they have gotten a HT? Any good reason not to? I would think that the Fin should stop hair loss and the HT restore the hair that has been lost.

Thank guys.

KO1
06-30-2013, 11:42 PM
There is no evidence that 0.25 is "just as effective" as 1mg. Some people can maintain on just 0.25mg daily, but there is NO reason to start with that dosage.

They have tested DHT suppression at different dosage, and it is flat, BUT, that doesn't tell you about the actual variable you're trying to measure - how much hair is maintained. Everybody will see different levels of DHT suppression on the same dosage, and 1mg is where Merck feels it is best for the widest population range.

Long story short, start with the recommended dosage, if you want to cut down, you can do that.

Dan26
07-01-2013, 08:17 AM
I'd start with 0.2mg if I were you. 1mg outperformed it by around 20% in terms of haircount, but may aswell test your success on o.2mg. Can always up your dose later.

KO1
07-01-2013, 08:19 AM
I'd start with 0.2mg if I were you. 1mg outperformed it by around 20% in terms of haircount, but may aswell test your success on o.2mg. Can always up your dose later.
Link?

Dan26
07-01-2013, 08:39 AM
Link?

I can't find the link to the original study, here is a thread it is spoke about though.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=84037&enterthread=y&STARTPAGE=2

KO1
07-01-2013, 08:43 AM
Well, the link has the results.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495375


Efficacy was demonstrated for all end points for finasteride at doses of 0.2 mg/day or higher, with 1 and 5 mg demonstrating similar efficacy that was superior to lower doses. Efficacy of the 0.01 mg dose was similar to placebo. No significant safety issues were identified in the trials.

Does not appear to be basis for a lower dosage than 1mg unless you suffer sides. You want the best possible result right?

KO1
07-01-2013, 08:46 AM
But you do have a point, according to what "Bryan" posted here:


As you can see, the 0.2 mg/day dose produced a haircount after six months of 61 hairs, versus 77 hairs for the 1 mg/day dose.

Still, not sure why you'd start with lower dose. But I agree it is a great option if you get sides, as it is effective at sub 1.0 mg dosages.

Dan26
07-01-2013, 02:57 PM
But you do have a point, according to what "Bryan" posted here:



Still, not sure why you'd start with lower dose. But I agree it is a great option if you get sides, as it is effective at sub 1.0 mg dosages.

You know whats weird, they didn't test any dose in the range of 0.05-0.2.

0.05mg is the smallest dose that actually has an effect on DHT. From what I recall 0.05mg/day inhibits DHT by around 50%. Wish we knew what 0.05mg/day did for hair count.

ryan555
07-01-2013, 03:09 PM
I think guys who are afraid of sides should dose themselves up on fin just as one would taper themselves off a drug. Here's all you need:

1) a 100 ml bottle, available at The Container Store or most pharmacies for under a buck.

2) a 1 ml syringe, without the needle, also under a buck.

3) one 5 mg fin pill

4) a pill crusher

Crush the pill and add it to exactly 100 ml of distilled water (you may have to pick out pieces of the pill coating with tweezers). Shake it vigorously before each use. Dose yourself, starting with .2 ml, which will equal .01 mg of fin. You can then literally go up .01 mg at a time using this method and find the point at which you start experiencing sides. If you get sides at .01, you're either hypersensitive to the drug or you're having a placebo effect.

Dan26
07-01-2013, 03:12 PM
I think guys who are afraid of sides should dose themselves up on fin just as one would taper themselves off a drug. Here's all you need:

1) a 100 ml bottle, available at The Container Store or most pharmacies for under a buck.

2) a 1 ml syringe, without the needle, also under a buck.

3) one 5 mg fin pill

4) a pill crusher

Crush the pill and add it to exactly 100 ml of distilled water (you may have to pick out pieces of the pill coating with tweezers). Shake it vigorously before each use. Dose yourself, starting with .2 ml, which will equal .01 mg of fin. You can then literally go up .01 mg at a time using this method and find the point at which you start experiencing sides. If you get sides at .01, you're either hypersensitive to the drug or you're having a placebo effect.

0.01 does nothing man. would neeed to start at 0.05 as the absolute lowest. Also, will fin dissolve in water, and how long will it be stable? People who micodose fin generally use ethanol.

ryan555
07-01-2013, 03:16 PM
0.01 does nothing man. would neeed to start at 0.05 as the absolute lowest. Also, will fin dissolve in water, and how long will it be stable? People who micodose fin generally use ethanol.

That's not the point. Starting with .01 would simply let your body adjust at a micro dose, if you're one of those guys who is terrified of side effects. Of course you'd have to work your way up to a higher dose. It does not completely dissolve in water - you have to shake it up and that would give you an imperfect distribution. You could dissolve it in vodka.

Dan26
07-01-2013, 03:30 PM
That's not the point. Starting with .01 would simply let your body adjust at a micro dose, if you're one of those guys who is terrified of side effects. Of course you'd have to work your way up to a higher dose. It does not completely dissolve in water - you have to shake it up and that would give you an imperfect distribution. You could dissolve it in vodka.

I mean that 0.01 does nothing in terms of lowering DHT. You may as well take placebo! Need to do atleast 0.05mg bro.

ryan555
07-01-2013, 03:57 PM
I mean that 0.01 does nothing in terms of lowering DHT. You may as well take placebo! Need to do atleast 0.05mg bro.

You're missing my point. IF one of these guys on the forum who is hysterical about having permanent sides from fin really wanted to stick their toe in the water, they could start with as little as .01. This would likely have no effect on hair loss, but it would also be highly unlikely to cause any significant side effects. After a few days on that dose, they could add more, working their way up to an effective dose sloooooowly without shocking their system with a higher dose. It's just like tapering off a drug, only in the reverse.

Dan26
07-01-2013, 05:24 PM
You're missing my point. IF one of these guys on the forum who is hysterical about having permanent sides from fin really wanted to stick their toe in the water, they could start with as little as .01. This would likely have no effect on hair loss, but it would also be highly unlikely to cause any significant side effects. After a few days on that dose, they could add more, working their way up to an effective dose sloooooowly without shocking their system with a higher dose. It's just like tapering off a drug, only in the reverse.

I see what your saying bro. But as far as I know, doses as low as 0.01mg literally have no effect whatsoever on your body. I know it seems weird that from 0.01-0.04 there is no changes then at 0.05 suddenly DHT is reduced. I guess if these people have no knowledge of that, then they could try it, and if they got sides on anything less than 0.05mg, it would be placebo effect lol.

*btw i could be wrong, might be 0.04mg where body is finally effected.

JulioGP
07-02-2013, 10:45 AM
Hello LCP,

I searched the same information you some time ago and found that, see:

"I posted the following in another thread, but I thought it might be helpful as its own topic. This info is floating around in bits & pieces all over this forum, but collecting it all in one place may be useful.

In human clinical trials, the pharmacokinetic half-life of finasteride was found to be 6 - 8 hours. However, the pharmacodynamic lifetime of finasteride action, measured in terms of the drug's ability to reduce the systemic concentration of DHT, after a single oral dose of between 0.04 and 5mg, was greater than or equal to 7 days. See the first chart below (taken from the book entitled, Integration of Pharmaceutical Discovery and Development: Case Histories):

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/download/file.php?id=101

You can see how a single dose of the drug reduces the systemic concentration of DHT over a 7 day period. That leads one to believe that taking finasteride daily is probably not necessary to maintain one's hair count. However, it also leads one to believe that taking one dose every 5 - 7 days is probably unwise as well, because while the DHT remains reduced over the 7 day period it does slowly rise over that time.

Then the question is how often should one take finasteride? Based on the above chart, I'd say it would probably be pretty safe to take it every other day or even three times a week (MWF). You may even get away with twice a week (MTh).

The next question is how much (as in mg) should one take? Take a look at the charts below (the first three charts are from a Propecia study story (circa 1998) by Sherman Frankel, a University of Pennsylvania professor of physics):

http://is100.imagesocket.com/images/2012/07/28/2504627-8nt1.JPG

You can see from the Serum DHT graph above that from doses of 0.2mg all the way through 5mg, the amount of inhibited DHT was about the same.

http://is100.imagesocket.com/images/2012/07/28/2504629-2oyt.JPG

You can see from the Scalp Skin DHT graph above that from doses of 0.05mg all the way through 5mg, the amount of inhibited DHT was about the same.

http://is100.imagesocket.com/images/2012/07/28/2504628-fddv.JPG

You can see by the above graph that the dose dependence appears also in the accompanying rise in T, one-onehundredth the 5 mg dose being identical in its effect on the scalp skin testosterone.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/pondle/Fincurve.jpg

The above graph (origin unknown) indicates how the following dosages of finasteride inhibit DHT:

- 0.2mg = 61.7%
- 0.5mg = ~65%
- 1mg = 68.7%
- 5mg = 69.2%

All pretty close in terms of percentages.

__________________________________________________ __________________________


I'm no scientist, but the first plasma DHT graph seems somewhat at odds with the rest of the graphs:

- 0.2mg reduces DHT to ~ 55 ng/dl
- 0.5mg reduces DHT to ~ 42 ng/dl
- 1.5mg reduces DHT to ~ 32 ng/dl
- 5.0mg reduces DHT to ~ 25 ng/dl

The first graph deals in blood serum levels. The rest in percentages of inhibited DHT. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to compare the two. Perhaps plasma DHT levels of 55 ng/dl are not much different than levels of 25 ng/dl when it comes to preventing MPB? I welcome others more expert in these matters to chime in.

Regardless, I conclude:

It's probably pretty safe to take finasteride every other day or even three times a week (MWF). You may even get away with twice a week (MTh).

Dosage is a matter of personal experimentation. Merck recommends 1mg daily for optimal results. Maybe they are right, but when you consider the above information; the personal testimonials of many forum members who have successfully reduced dosages; and, the fact that Merck is a pharmaceutical company interested primarily in profits, then I think a healthy bit of skepticism is warranted.

If you want to save money and/or reduce side effects, I'd suggest tapering down slowly, and paying very close attention to any changes, until you reach a regimen which preserves your hair and eliminates sides. Keep a hair loss journal complete with weekly photos if it helps.

Perhaps something like this (if you're splitting 1mg Propecia tablets):

- 1mg every other day for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
- 1mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
- 1mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -

- 0.5mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
- 0.5mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -

- 0.25mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
- 0.25mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, stop the meds.

If one month at each dosage doesn't work for you, adjust to a time period which does. Obviously, if you start losing hair anytime during the tapering-off period, then you've gone too low and you have an important decision to make - do I up the meds again to preservation levels and deal with sides or just stop completely? Only you can answer that.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Regarding finasteride and conceiving children. I am aware of no evidence that men taking finasteride while trying to conceive will cause birth defects. Here is some information to consider according to Dr. Richard Lee:

- "In rabbit fetuses exposed to finasteride in utero from days 6-18 of gestation at doses equivalent to 5000 times the recommended human dosage, no evidence of malformations was observed. This result would be expected, since there was no exposure during the critical period of genital system development in rabbits."

- "When pregnant rhesus monkeys were given intravenous finasteride at a level equivalent to at least 750 times the highest estimated exposure of pregnant women to finasteride from semen of men taking 1mg/day, there were no genital abnormalities observed."

- "In the human embryo, the sensitive period of external genitalia development is during the 7th - 9th weeks of gestation. Although the chromosomal and genetic sex of an embryo is determined at fertilization by the kind of sperm, either Y-bearing or X-bearing, that fertilizes the ovum, male and female morphological characteristics do not begin to develop until the seventh week...Since the sensitive period of development of the external genitalia in the human embryo is the 7th to 9th weeks of gestation, there can be no danger to the child if the father is taking finasteride at the time of conception. Originally, Merck decided to err on the side of caution and warned against the possible problem of finasteride transfer in semen. This warning has since been removed from the package insert. Considering the medical/legal implications of a theoretically possible link of finasteride treatment to birth defects, it is reasonable to assume that Merck & Co. must be very confident in knowing that impregnating a woman while taking finasteride absolutely does not cause birth defects."

- "Nor is there any evidence of birth defects when the father taking finasteride has intercourse with the pregnant mother during the critical periods of sexual development. The in utero effects of finasteride exposure during the period of embryonic and fetal development (gestation days 20-100) were evaluated in the rhesus monkey, a species fairly predictive of human development. Intravenous administration of finasteride to pregnant monkeys at doses as high as 800ng/day (at least 60 to 120 times the highest estimated exposure of pregnant women to finasteride from semen of men taking 5mg/day) caused no abnormalities in male fetuses."

- "Still, Merck retains this admonition: "Women should not handle crushed or broken Propecia tablets when they are pregnant or may be potentially pregnant because of the possibility of absorption of finasteride and the subsequent potential risk to a male fetus. Propecia tablets are coated and will prevent contact with the active ingredient during normal handling, provided that the tablets have not been broken or crushed."

- "Considering that intravenous administration of finasteride to pregnant experimental animals during the critical periods of sexual development didn't cause birth defects, there is no reason to believe that transdermal absorption of finasteride from handling broken tablets could cause birth defects in the male child. But, since Propecia has not been approved by the FDA for use by women, Merck has nothing to lose by retaining this warning. In fact, it has good p.r. value."

- "So, can finasteride cause birth defects? Yes, there is a theoretical possibility that it can, but the probability is close to nil, when finasteride is taken in the recommended dosages. Since Propecia was approved by the FDA on 22 December 1997 and Proscar on 28 August 1996, millions of doses of finasteride have been taken and there has not been a single case report of a birth defect. Now that's reassuring information."

- "We do caution men who desire to father children to discontinue finasteride use two week prior to planned conception. Actually, there have been no reports of birth defects due to taking finasteride. But because birth defects can occur in women who have a DHT deficiency, the warning is mandated by the FDA for the 5mg. tablets."

Despite the above information, some guys (and their significant others) are still concerned about it. Something to keep in mind is the half-life for dissociation of the inhibitory complex between finasteride and its enzyme target is in excess of 30 days. Half-life is defined as "the time required for something to fall to half its initial value." So, it works out something like this:

Day 1 - 100%
Day 30 - 50%
Day 60 - 25%
Day 90 - 12.5%
Day 120 - 6.25%
Day 150 - 3.125%
Day 180 - 1.5625%

And, so on... So, at 6 months you still have around 1.56% remaining to be dissociated. That's also something to keep in mind regarding how long side effects can last for the average man (nevermind those who are genetically predisposed to severe side effects).

So, obviously, I don't know if or how finasteride could affect conception via semen. But if it can (which is what some are worried about), then discontinuing finasteride 2 weeks prior to planned conception, as Dr. Lee (and the FDA) prescribes, may not make much of a difference - it doesn't appear to be enough time. Unless the two week rule has something to do with the pharmacokinetic half-life or the pharmacodynamic lifetime of finasteride action, both being much shorter? If you have evidence that stopping for two weeks makes a difference, please present it. Based on the evidence thus far, it seems to me if you're going to stop for conception purposes, stop for the long-term, or don't bother at all. And, if you're going to stop for conception purposes, once your lady is pregnant, wear a condom for the duration of the pregnancy.

Lastly, there's little doubt that after the first month of discontinuation you will be losing hair that finasteride was preserving for you, so weigh the decision carefully."


This was one of the most comprehensive studies I had found. The same shows that it is unnecessary to take finasteride every day since the plasma remains low even after a few days. Most likely I will do this test here one month, taking Fina 1mg every other day, and post the results.

KO1
07-02-2013, 11:33 AM
Is there any data that measures hair counts rather than systemic DHT levels? That's the key variable, as you surely know, DHT is not an endocrine hormone, and DHT levels within the target tissue (hair follicle) are more important than systemic.

Take the scalp skin DHT level data. They show that 0.05mg is almost as good as 1mg in DHT suppression, however we know that 1mg is better at retaining hair.

Lower doses are effective, and a good option for those with sides, but nothing suggests they are "as" effective as 1mg.

Dan26
07-02-2013, 12:21 PM
Based on all that information, this seems like the most reasonable thing to do if you want to take fin, but are worried about side effects.

Start with 0.05mg/day. It should give you some results compared to the other doses. If not, up to 0.2mg/day, as this is proven to give solid results in terms of haircount. Still nothing!? Take the daily recommended dose, or perhaps try 0.5mg EOD etc.

And again, given all of the above information, i can't help but wonder why Merck did not use 0.05mg/day in their dose ranging studies. It makes no sense.

Jcm800
07-02-2013, 02:08 PM
Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?

JulioGP
07-02-2013, 03:49 PM
Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?

Jcm800,

I used 1mg for 1 year and had to stop because of side effects. But at the time I wore 1mg every day. With the negative Kératene, I will start a test with 1mg every other day and take the exams at the end of this month.

This year that I used, I startedr having the side at the end of the third month. But in the second week I had a huge reduction in force. Then, low libido and erectile dysfunction. Some guys was told me that these effects were passengers and that after a while they disappeared while continuing treatment and so I did. But it not happened. When completed 1 year of treatment, I interrupted. It took me about 6 months or more to recover from all the side effects. Currently I want to do the test every other day, because I think it is much less aggressive for the body since the Drug continues acting.

I agree with KO1, but I also believe that if systemically DHT is low, certainly in the follicles will still be too, because DHT increases in follicles through the system itself. I think it is possible to reduce the DHT in the follicles and DHT remains high in the system (with a topical product that is not systemically absorbed), but not vice versa.

Let's see what the tests will show and I'll use the same method that always utilized (including Kératene) which is the ELISA.

ryan555
07-02-2013, 04:03 PM
Julio - the first graph shows DHT inhibition after a single dose of fin. I think the others show results of continued use, after the drug has begun building up in your system. In other words, if you were going to take it only once a week, you'd need a high dose. If you are going to take it every day, you can probably take as little as .05 mg and get the desired effect.

KO1
07-02-2013, 05:35 PM
You can get the desired effect sure, but there's no basis to say it will be "as" effective as 1mg. Remember, 1mg fin will inhibit DHT at different levels in different people, some will see a lot of inhibition and it will be overkill, while others it will not be enough. 1mg appears to be the "sweet spot" for the widest population.

So for someone like JulioGP, it makes sense to start with 1mg, and then cut down if sides are persistent. Or start with microdose and work your way up....but I agree with your point - something is better than nothing!

JulioGP
07-02-2013, 06:18 PM
ryan555, I guess.

The first graph shows how much DHT is reduced and the number of days depending on the dose. It is complete. Others may show continuous use, but the information is already quite complete in the first graph.

My idea is to start with a dose every other day for 1mg and depending on my result, decrease to 1 mg every 2 days. The graph clearly shows that in 2 days, DHT increases very little compared with the following day dosing.

KO1,

I agree with you. Probably the action in each one will be different. The wisest thing to do is actually monitoring through blood tests and be alert for any side effect.

Dan26
07-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Guys I'm telling you, 0.05mg/day is the way to go.

Look at all the data carefully. First, remember that the dose ranging study concluded 1mg to be around 25% more effective than 0.2mg in terms of hair count. What could be the reason for this? Look at the charts, 1mg reduced scalp DHT by 64%, and 0.2mg reduced scalp DHT by 55%. Makes sense 1mg would be superior. Then look at 5mg, reduced scalp DHT by 68%, again, makes sense that 5mg would be even more superior. But, keep in mind that in the dose ranging study, all doses were done for 6 months, except 5mg. 5mg was done for 12 months, which further explains the increased hair count.

Now, look at the data for 0.05mg/day. Scalp DHT reduced by 62%! Almost the same as for 1mg/day. And, serum DHT was only reduced by 50% as opposed to over 70%. I find it odd that 0.05mg/day would have more scalp DHT reduction than serum DHT reduction, but that is what the data shows.

Unfortunately 0.05mg/day was never included in the dose-ranging studies, but I'm connived it would perform on par with 1mg/day. Again, does not make sense intuitively, but the data indicates this.

Also when you look at DHT reduction after single doses, it is even more incentive to start low. A higher dose shoots your DHT way down after a single dose. A small dose like 0.05 only knocks it down a little after a single dose, but we know that 0.05/day repeatedly cuts serum DHT by 50%. This means it is a gradual decrease, which is likely easier on our bodies.

KO1
07-02-2013, 07:58 PM
Now, look at the data for 0.05mg/day. Scalp DHT reduced by 62%! Almost the same as for 1mg/day. And, serum DHT was only reduced by 50% as opposed to over 70%. I find it odd that 0.05mg/day would have more scalp DHT reduction than serum DHT reduction, but that is what the data shows.
Not exactly, 5AR2 inhibition should inhibit scalp DHT more than serum, as 5AR2 is heavily present in the scalp.



Unfortunately 0.05mg/day was never included in the dose-ranging studies, but I'm connived it would perform on par with 1mg/day. Again, does not make sense intuitively, but the data indicates this.


No, the data does not indicate this. All data shows is it is effective above 0.2mg, with a flattening over 1mg.

http://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622%2899%2980052-8/abstract

Dan26
07-02-2013, 08:54 PM
Not exactly, 5AR2 inhibition should inhibit scalp DHT more than serum, as 5AR2 is heavily present in the scalp.

[/url]

Ahh ok, thanks, didn't know that.




No, the data does not indicate this. All data shows is it is effective above 0.2mg, with a flattening over 1mg.

http://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622%2899%2980052-8/abstract

Bro you did not read and/or understand my post properly...I don't want to rehash, just read it again more carefully. If 0.05 was included, according to the data, it would be reasonable to assume 0.05/day would perform on par with 1mg.

The key is scalp DHT. There is clearly a direct correlation to hair count and scalp DHT in the dose-ranging studies. What makes you think haircount would not be close between 0.05/day and 1mg/day? Scalp DHT reduction is nearly the same.

It is unfortunate that0.05 or a dose from 0.04-0.2 was not included in dose ranging studies...

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 12:52 AM
Thanks guys for all the above, this stuff is frightening to me, but if i were to try it, would 0.25mg Mon and Thurs be ok do you think? I guess it's down to me to try it ultimately tho..

Superstar
07-03-2013, 01:46 AM
I've been thinking about trying 0.25 (4 small pieces) 2 times a week also. i've had the pills since October, but have been holding out. I recently read a new study that came out a few weeks ago where the doctor gave it to guys who never had a sexual side effect, got on fin and had them, then they got off it for 3 months and still have the sides.

Very tough decision

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 03:17 AM
Which study was that? Do you have a link?

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 03:22 AM
I actually had the side and these persisted for more than 6 months. This season made ​​me think I would not use the Fina again. When Kératene appeared, I thought it was my hope, but my exams not proved efficient.

The hair keeps disappearing fast. Therefore I will make more this attempt, even having suffered side effects in the past. But now there are more studies to help bring a dose less aggressive.

Look what I intend to do. I'll use a dose of 1mg and then depending on what goes in my result, or we decrease the dose or I keep.

http://s24.postimg.org/q3l5qzo2d/teste.jpg

For my theory (red line), instead of using every other day, can you use every 3 days with no problems. After the first low DHT would only need for a "maintenance" of the same, as it will still be low. The graphs show that in three days the DHT remained at a level of approximately 32ng/dl the 37ng/dl, ie, a very small increase, and it probably will not negatively affect baldness.

There may be some changes on it, but it's an idea.

Dan26
07-03-2013, 06:18 AM
Guys can someone address why 0.05mg/day would not be the best way to take this drug?

Look at the chart, slight decrease after one dose at 0.04mg. We know that daily doses of 0.05mg cuts DHT by 50%, and Serum DHT by 62% (which is almost the same as for 1mg). So take daily doses of 0.05 and your DHT slowly decreases by 50%, rather than a rapid drop after one daily dose at a higher amount.

Someone please explain why it would not be best to do 0.05mg/day.

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 06:40 AM
Guys can someone address why 0.05mg/day would not be the best way to take this drug?

Look at the chart, slight decrease after one dose at 0.04mg. We know that daily doses of 0.05mg cuts DHT by 50%, and Serum DHT by 62% (which is almost the same as for 1mg). So take daily doses of 0.05 and your DHT slowly decreases by 50%, rather than a rapid drop after one daily dose at a higher amount.

Someone please explain why it would not be best to do 0.05mg/day.

Dan26,

You mean 0.5mg instead 0.05mg day?

KO1
07-03-2013, 07:33 AM
Guys can someone address why 0.05mg/day would not be the best way to take this drug?

Look at the chart, slight decrease after one dose at 0.04mg. We know that daily doses of 0.05mg cuts DHT by 50%, and Serum DHT by 62% (which is almost the same as for 1mg). So take daily doses of 0.05 and your DHT slowly decreases by 50%, rather than a rapid drop after one daily dose at a higher amount.

Someone please explain why it would not be best to do 0.05mg/day.

Because serum DHT concentration is not the same as hair counts. Furthermore, we know for a FACT that a dosage less than 0.2 mg daily is not as good as 1mg daily. There is no reason to believe that 0.05mg a day is advisable.

KO1
07-03-2013, 07:37 AM
Thanks guys for all the above, this stuff is frightening to me, but if i were to try it, would 0.25mg Mon and Thurs be ok do you think? I guess it's down to me to try it ultimately tho..
This is unlikely to be effective. But you can try it if you want. Personally, what I would do if I were you and suffered sides, is take 0.25 mg about 3x a week, evaluate, and then continue to increase until you're taking 0.25mg everyday.

The problem for you is that (from what I read) you had no sides initially, but later on they developed, so in a sense, just because you tolerate it now, does not mean you will tolerate in the future. But with a lower dosage, it should be reduced. May I ask what nature of sides did you get, and how severe they were?

KO1
07-03-2013, 07:42 AM
But it is up to you. You can take as little or as much as you want. 0.05mg, well get a microscope. :)

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 07:50 AM
This is unlikely to be effective. But you can try it if you want. Personally, what I would do if I were you and suffered sides, is take 0.25 mg about 3x a week, evaluate, and then continue to increase until you're taking 0.25mg everyday.

The problem for you is that (from what I read) you had no sides initially, but later on they developed, so in a sense, just because you tolerate it now, does not mean you will tolerate in the future. But with a lower dosage, it should be reduced. May I ask what nature of sides did you get, and how severe they were?

You must be thinking of someone else mate, I've never taken the drug.

I'm always on here asking questions about it tho.

KO1
07-03-2013, 07:53 AM
Ok, I had you mixed with Julio. Just do what you're comfortable with, but remember, 1mg is the "sweet spot" dosage for the widest group of people, you may do well on a lower dosage, you may not.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 07:55 AM
Ok, I had you mixed with Julio. Just do what you're comfortable with, but remember, 1mg is the "sweet spot" dosage for the widest group of people, you may do well on a lower dosage, you may not.

Just want to start off at a low level really, without shocking my system, but at what level I'm not sure.. How long have you been on it? You sure sing it's praises dude

KO1
07-03-2013, 07:56 AM
Julio, I read your post, your sides sound strong, so you may be better off using something like RU.

Dan26
07-03-2013, 08:02 AM
Because serum DHT concentration is not the same as hair counts. Furthermore, we know for a FACT that a dosage less than 0.2 mg daily is not as good as 1mg daily. There is no reason to believe that 0.05mg a day is advisable.

Ok, but look at dose ranging studies. There is a direct correlation between SCALP DHT and HAIR COUNT. 1mg reduced scalp DHT by more than 0.2mg, and haircount is higher. Same holds true for the other doses. Makes sense, right? 0.05mg/day has only 2% less scalp DHT reduction than 1mg. It SHOULD have similar haircount, if they were to test it in dose ranging studies. AND, serum DHT is only reduced by 50%, much less than 1mg.

And how do we know for a FACT dosage less than 0.2mg daily is not as good as 1mg daily?? It wasn't even tested! Besides 0.01, which obviously blows as it was on par with placebo.

So again, if 0.05mg/day reduces SCALP SHT by almost the same as 1mg/day, what makes you think hair count would not be almost the same aswell? The fact there was no dose ranging study for 0.05/day, when they knew it reduced scalp DHT by almost he same as 1mg/day, yet serum DHT by 20% less (less side effects ;) ), makes absolutely no sense whatsoever at all point blank period

KO1
07-03-2013, 08:05 AM
And how do we know for a FACT dosage less than 0.2mg daily is not as good as 1mg daily?? It wasn't even tested! Besides 0.01, which obviously blows as it was on par with placebo.



Efficacy was demonstrated for all end points for finasteride at doses of 0.2 mg/day or higher, with 1 and 5 mg demonstrating similar efficacy that was superior to lower doses. Efficacy of the 0.01 mg dose was similar to placebo. No significant safety issues were identified in the trials.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495375

Dan26
07-03-2013, 08:38 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495375

Dude...stop....lol

You are missing the point!

I GET IT! WE CAN ONLY KNOW FOR CERTAIN THE EFFECT ON HAIRCOUNT FOR THE DOSES THAT WERE TESTED.

BUT ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME PLEASE...

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT, IF 0.05mg/day WAS CHOSEN TO BE TESTED TOO, IT WOULD NOT PERFORM ON PAR WITH 1mg/day???

Give me a reason, BESIDES the fact that it wasn't actually tested.

KO1
07-03-2013, 08:40 AM
I repeat, we know for a FACT that less than 1mg is not as effective as 1mg (the study I posted says that). Given that 0.05mg is < 1mg, there's strong reason to believe that it is not as effective

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 09:52 AM
K01
I do not feel safe to use the RU, I think that few studies have been done on this drug. I would venture on Finasteride with a lower dosage.

If we look at the chart that is quoted "scalp DHT", Dan26 would be right.

Really there was no difference between the dosages of 0.05mg and 1mg. When using the 0.2mg dose of DHT in the scalp was still greater, which is something strange.

I posted this study because I think that everyone takes a very high dosage without needed. Would only have to evaluate whether the study was done only in one individual or in a group.

Another thing is that here in Brazil, we have only the dosage of 1mg and 5mg. To share one 1mg tablet in half is easy, but to share 1mg in 0.05mg is virtually impossible to do it at home, and can ruin the medicine and undermine its effect.

But I agree that the graph, the same effect would 0.05mg and 1mg.

Perhaps the easiest to do and that is not in the graph would take 0.5mg every other day. I think there would be much change compared to 0.05 to 1mg.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 10:05 AM
So, in simple terms and ease of cutting, is half of a 1mg tablet a good place to start EOD or is a quarter going to be worthwhile twice a week?

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 10:07 AM
So, in simple terms and ease of cutting, is half of a 1mg tablet a good place to start EOD or is a quarter going to be worthwhile twice a week?

Not sure I understand your question correctly (language problems), but it would be efficient and effective take 0.5mg every other day. In theory, it would almost the same effect as a dose of 1 mg daily.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 10:14 AM
Not sure I understand your question correctly (language problems), but it would be efficient and effective take 0.5mg every other day. In theory, it would almost the same effect as a dose of 1 mg daily.

It's ok Julio, we're talking about the same thing, I mean half a 1mg tablet every other day, and so do you I think. But what about a quarter of a tablet 0.25 mg every other day, or twice per week, maybe Mon and Thurs?

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 10:25 AM
It's ok Julio, we're talking about the same thing, I mean half a 1mg tablet every other day, and so do you I think. But what about a quarter of a tablet 0.25 mg every other day, or twice per week, maybe Mon and Thurs?

The problem is that looking at the graphs, the comparison shows that the drug is acting on various different days of the comparison shows that the effectiveness of the scalp (we donīt know it was daily or every xxx days).

If we take the effectiveness 0.25 (or 0.2) in the graph showing the effectiveness in days, we see that with this dosage is ineffective, but we're talking systematically and not on the scalp which is where it really matters.

Moreover, checking the effectiveness of the scalp to say give 0.2 gives almost the same effect as 1 mg, but in this study did not know whether this dose was taken daily or every xxx days.

In my opinion analyzing these charts (even without having some information), it would be also interesting to use 0.25mg every day instead of 1mg every other day or every three days, but you can not say that 0.25mg two times in week would be effective. Maybe three times a week, but it certainly would be no need to do tests blood/scalp to confirm whether you would not be wasting time with such use.

KO1
07-03-2013, 11:12 AM
Nobody will be able to definitively answer this as the studies simply have not been done. However, I don't believe that these lower doses are as effective, but if you cannot tolerate a higher dose, this may be your only choice, and it is better than nothing.

If you suffer sides and want to use fin, you should consider topical finasteride formulations - but you will need to prepare them yourself.


JulioGP - you should watch out for Cosmo Pharma - they are testing their CB 03 01 compound on humans, so that will have gone through human testing like you want.

JulioGP
07-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Intesrstin KO1, W&#180;ll study this product, thank you.

If we consider that there is a proportionality, in theory it would be possible to use in this condition, my opinion.

Even though it is using a daily dose or every 3 days, the change that occurs on the scalp compared to the variation that occurs in the system is not different.

If the system there is a reduction of about 70&#37; of DHT and this remains low for a few days, the reduction will also remain on the scalp for a few days because they do not have to be different.

That's because you're attacking the DHT orally and which promotes a reduction of DHT on the scalp is primarily a change in systemic DHT.

I make it clear that this is my opinion.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 02:42 PM
So, KO1 - how long have you been on Fin, do you use generic or Propecia? When you started did you do 1mg seven days a week straight off? How has your experience with it been, all rosey? Or any negatives as well?

KO1
07-03-2013, 03:01 PM
I took branded Proscar for 1.5 years now I switch to 0.75 mg dut on average daily. My experience has been maintenance but no regrowth. I may consider taking two duts daily if I don't see any regrowth. I have aggressive loss, so I want to suppress DHT to sub-castrate levels.

No adverse effects though, except for acne, on and off. Which is curiously an androgenic side effect. I personally am surprised more people do not see androgenic side effects, given that Testosterone rises on this drug. Here is a dose ranging study on dutasteride:

http://baumanmedical.typepad.com/articles/JACD_dutasteride_vs_finasteride_MPHL.pdf

I take generic dutas in the morning every day. At night I alternate between branded Proscar and branded Avodart. Just in case my Dutas is fake.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 03:21 PM
I took branded Proscar for 1.5 years now I switch to 0.75 mg dut on average daily. My experience has been maintenance but no regrowth. I may consider taking two duts daily if I don't see any regrowth. I have aggressive loss, so I want to suppress DHT to sub-castrate levels.

No adverse effects though, except for acne, on and off. Which is curiously an androgenic side effect. I personally am surprised more people do not see androgenic side effects, given that Testosterone rises on this drug. Here is a dose ranging study on dutasteride:

http://baumanmedical.typepad.com/articles/JACD_dutasteride_vs_finasteride_MPHL.pdf

I take generic dutas in the morning every day. At night I alternate between branded Proscar and branded Avodart. Just in case my Dutas is fake.

Thanks, you have done your studying i guess, seems like a hardcore regime - but like you say, you want to suppress it to the max. Surprised you havent seen any re-growth as yet? Thought guys on Dutas generally did?

KO1
07-03-2013, 03:25 PM
Only started the new regime about 2 months ago as I felt I started to thin again. May Allah/Zeus/Krishna/Sweet Baby Jesus be with me.

Jcm800
07-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Only started the new regime about 2 months ago as I felt I started to thin again. May Allah/Zeus/Krishna/Sweet Baby Jesus be with me.

More power to you dude - may they all be with you, and all of us