Struggle To Defeat Baldness (Norwood 4-5)

[StressedToTheBald]

Hello,
This is my first baldness forum to join, I'm becoming desperate, I'd like to share my own story and learn from the experience of others.

I think I never had a good set of hair in my life. Early on, I sadly never paid too much attention to it, and now when I entered my 30s and became aware of my lack of healthy hair, I believe it might be too late as I have already lost too much. Most likely my hair was receding even before my 20s, and in my 20s I used high doses of accutane for my skin condition - that only could have added more negative potential to my poor genes that most certainly carry MPB. Now in my 30s - my frontal lines are extremely receding, what I have in front is very thin hair and my crown is very bald with only thin patch of hair remaining. I've looked at the Norwood scale - I'm at least 4 if not 5 !

[img=http://img154.imagevenue.com/loc388/th_102154609_StressedToTheBald_122_388lo.JPG]

On and off I tried all the natural stuff out there, trying to avoid minoxidil and propecia. Again, on and off I tried saw palmetto tea, B vitamins, apple cider, shampoos, herbal lotions, teas.. nothing really worked in terms of regrowing. At best, what hair I had left might have felt stronger, but no regrowth. Some stuff I got bored with after weeks or few months, so I can't be 100% sure if something could have made a difference if I had continued to use it. I remember, on and off, I used high doses of Biotin, up to 10,000 units daily - but that didn't work for me either.

I don't think my hairs are gone, when I come extremely close in the mirror, there are barely noticable discoloured tiny hairs - but they simply don't grow nor they turn to the colour of the rest of my hair.

I'm currently on beta sitosterol, trying to go up to 480mg daily, also use MSM topical cream 10% and MSM tabs 1000mg - I ran out of those currently btw. I also try to use anti-DHT stuff, like nettle teas, I drink apple ciders with 5% extract of garlic and nettle separately, use B 100mg complex, C, full spectrum minerals etc. At times, before shower I use garlic juice topical. I'm vegan, so I eat plenty of soy too, and I use protein isolates - which include high dosages of arginine and other amino acids..

But all in all and so far, very very tough luck !
I am considering starting minoxidil 5% if I don't see any results soon with my current regimen..

[Tracy C]

You are wasting your time and money trying "natural" remedies for hair loss. There is no legitimate evidence that "natural" products for treating hair loss can help in any way to any degree. Your money is much better spent working with a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss. There are treatments for hair loss that are proven to work - and they do work for most people who use them. Spending your money on products that are not proved to work is a complete waste of money. If you are unwilling or unable to use the medications that are proven to work, you need to come to terms with accepting your hair loss and get on with your life.

[rajivnairr]

Hi,

I shared the same dilemma as you and was in denial about the state of my hair until it was too late or so I thought. All these "natural" stuffs have not been proven to regrow hair or arrest hairfall. I am from India and the market here is saturated with so called natural/herbal/ayurvedic hair saving formulas which unfortunately DO NOT work. As someone who can understand your current state of mind, I would suggest you do not deliberate getting on Minoxidil/Propecia, get a trichologists opinion and get on the medication asap. I am experiencing great results with the Big 3. So go with the stuff that is known to work for you rather than spending money elsewhere...

Regards,
Rajiv Nair

[StressedToTheBald]

Appreciate Your thoughts Tracy C and rajivnairr.

I tend to agree & disagree.
My money would be best spent with a good hair transplant - I'd go for that straight away if I could afford one, but at this point I cannot, and I am not willing to go for a partial or cheap one I would regret later in time.

I agree that 99% of supposed 'natural' remedies out there are complete rubish and do not work. I am the proof that they do not work. But also there are new scientific studies showcasing positive effects of saw palmetto, beta sitosterols, procyianidins etc. Effects of these might not be as good as FDA approved stuff, maybe dosage is wrong or whatever, and most certainly they are not as well popularised as minox and propecia, but the lack of side effects goes in clear favour of potential natural remedies.

FDA approved minoxidil and propecia are no miracle cures either ! Both come not only with risks but also lifetime usage and high costs, all going to corporations that thrive on desperate people like us, exploiting our baldness.

Propecia is something I would not gamble with. I want hair but not in exchange for my health in other departments. For example...

"Cure for BALDNESS causes IMPOTENCE, says new study..
8th March 2011.
The new study, carried out by Dr Abdulmaged Traish of the Boston uni medical school and his colleagues, looks into the health effects of the 5α-reductase inhibitors (5α-RIs) finasteride and dutasteride.
Dr Traish and his colleagues write:
Results: Prolonged adverse effects on sexual function such as erectile dysfunction and diminished libido are reported by a subset of men, raising the possibility of a causal relationship ...
We suggest discussion with patients on the potential sexual side effects of 5α-RIs before commencing therapy. Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion, especially when treating androgenetic alopecia."

I'd like to give 5% minoxidil a chance, yet some of its side effects worry me too. The side effect of potential hair appearing elsewhere I don't need it. Or the unknown health issues that might arise in the future. I don't know if it can cause related heart problems, maybe not straight away but in 5 or 10 years. It is well documented that minoxidil causes death with cats or dogs - some owners thought they could treat cats' fur with minox, and result was a disaster, topical usage btw. This makes me think, if it has such effect on animals, even though it doesn't harm humans the same way, it doesn't feel as harmless substance to me, otherwise animals wouldn't end up dead.

[Tracy C]

My money would be best spent with a good hair transplant - I'd go for that straight away if I could afford one, but...

Sigh... There is so much you need to learn. You need to get your self to a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss. Hair transplant surgery, no matter how great, does not stop the progression of hereditary hair loss. You still need to take medications for the rest of your life to prevent your non-DHT hair from falling out. Without using medications to manage your hereditary hair loss, your non-DHT resistant hair will continue to fall out. This can and likely will lead to long term dissatisfaction with your hair transplant surgery. To get the most out of a great hair transplant, it is best to use the FDA approved medications for at least one year prior to having surgery - and then continue using them for the rest of your life. It just is what it is. Hereditary hair loss continues to progress for the rest of your life. Therefore you need to continue to manage it with medications for the rest of your life. Like it or not, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

I agree that 99% of supposed 'natural' remedies out there are complete rubish and do not work. I am the proof that they do not work. But also there are new scientific studies showcasing positive effects of saw palmetto, beta sitosterols, procyianidins etc.

There are no legitimate studies showing any evidence what so ever that any "natural" remedy for hereditary hair loss is helpful in any way to any degree. Sure there are "studies" but there are no "legitimate studies". There is a very big difference there - and too many people are falling for the hype.

FDA approved minoxidil and propecia are no miracle cures either !

No one said they are. However, they are the only pill and lotion proven to work. That is why they have been approved by the FDA for the treatment of hereditary hair loss. That's just the way it is for now - until something better comes along.

All medications have possible side effects. If you think "natural" remedies do not have side effects, you have a lot of learning yet to do. If a "natural" remedy actually could provide similar benefits as Propecia, it would likely also have similar side effects as Propecia.

It is well documented that minoxidil causes death with cats or dogs...

Um... Cats are naturally allergic to Minoxidil. I don't know about dogs though. Cats are also naturally immune to some things that humans are naturally allergic to. You are making an uninformed comparison here.

[StressedToTheBald]

Sigh... There is so much you need to learn. You need to get your self to a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss.

For what is worth I've actually spent many days, weeks and months going through hair loss facts and researches. I sadly don't live in the Western world and here there are no hair loss specialists or clinics, only general dermatologists who I'd say have no more info nor knowledge than an average Joe here on the forum.

Hair transplant surgery, no matter how great, does not stop the progression of hereditary hair loss. You still need to take medications for the rest of your life to prevent your non-DHT hair from falling out. Without using medications to manage your hereditary hair loss, your non-DHT resistant hair will continue to fall out. This can and likely will lead to long term dissatisfaction with your hair transplant surgery. To get the most out of a great hair transplant, it is best to use the FDA approved medications for at least one year prior to having surgery - and then continue using them for the rest of your life. It just is what it is. Hereditary hair loss continues to progress for the rest of your life. Therefore you need to continue to manage it with medications for the rest of your life. Like it or not, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

I know that surgeons prescribe FDA meds after the transplant procedure itself. But what I also recall reading, most claim that the new transplanted hairs are DHT resistant and that they do not fall out. If what You say is true and even the newly transplanted hairs are prone to DHT falling out and have to be maintained by propecia and minox for life - then those surgeons are not telling the complete story or the truth at all. Then the whole story of the transplant as permanent and complete solution becomes only one more quasi solution to baldness problem, hardly worth thousands of dollars ?

There are no legitimate studies showing any evidence what so ever that any "natural" remedy for hereditary hair loss is helpful in any way to any degree. Sure there are "studies" but there are no "legitimate studies". There is a very big difference there - and too many people are falling for the hype.

Example
^ Prager N, Bickett K, French N, Marcovici G (2002). "A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-alpha-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia". Journal of alternative and complementary medicine 8 (2): 143–52. doi:10.1089/107555302317371433. PMID 12006122.

Depends what You consider legitimate. If You only endorce powerful corporate studies by FDA aproved manufacturers, I'd ask You - if Your main goal was profits and if Your company makes profits from lifetime bound customers, You wouldn't be in a hurry to invent a permanent one time cure or promote natural ingredients that can't be patented or bring in steady cash flow ?

No one said they are. However, they are the only pill and lotion proven to work. That is why they have been approved by the FDA for the treatment of hereditary hair loss. That's just the way it is for now - until something better comes along.

They are medical mainstream I agree. But they are not one time solution and they don't work on all males either. Its very important to say and as far as I know FDA doesn't regulate natural remedies whatsoever. Btw, many cutting edge doctors today consider FDA to be rigid organization. FDA still claims 60mg or something of vitamin C equals 100% RDA.. I bet Doctor Pauling (Father Of Vitamin C and promoter of real needed daily doses) is turning in in hes grave because of the FDA's rigid and backward stances on similar issues.

All medications have possible side effects. If you think "natural" remedies do not have side effects, you have a lot of learning yet to do. If a "natural" remedy actually could provide similar benefits as Propecia, it would likely also have similar side effects as Propecia.

Thats the whole point, risks vs. benefits, and somehow I still believe natural remedies carry less risk. I'm currently on 480mg of beta sitosterol - You are right thar even 'naturals might have similar side effects to propecia but still it feels as more fair gamble than propecia. I hope as it has similar side effects as propecia, that it might after several months give somewhat near results.

Beta Sitosterol Side-Effects:
"Numerous clinical studies and trials of β-sitosterol have shown that it may cause side-effects, most of which are not usually dangerous. By taking more than the recommended dose, people may suffer from stomach upset, nausea, diarrhea, gas or constipation, impotence (also known as erectile dysfunction or ED), decreased sex drive.[15] β-Sitosterol should be avoided during pregnancy and breast-feeding, since not enough is known about its effects on unborn and newborn children. β-Sitosterol is also not recommended for individuals with sitosterolemia, a rare inherited fat storage disease. Because people with this condition have too much β-sitosterol and related fats in their system, taking β-sitosterol will only worsen this condition. High levels of β-sitosterol concentrations in blood have been correlated with increased severity of heart disease in men having previously suffered from heart attacks."

Um... Cats are naturally allergic to Minoxidil. I don't know about dogs though. Cats are also naturally immune to some things that humans are naturally allergic to. You are making an uninformed comparison here.

Talking about uninformed, allergic You say. Well thats not what the research says. It clearly says toxic, like deadly, poison like.. We're not talking allergy, skin reaction or anything like that. If this substance is able to kill living creatures by topical application, suddenly it doesn't sound as harmless as skin irritation, allergy or whatever. I wish there were further studies and research available regarding the impact of minoxidil on human health in the long run.

"Minoxidil is highly toxic to cats and may cause death with inadvertent skin contact."
^ Camille DeClementi; Keith L. Bailey, Spencer C. Goldstein, and Michael Scott Orser (December 2004). "Suspected toxicosis after topical administration of minoxidil in 2 cats". Journal of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care 14 (4): 287–292. doi:10.1111/j.1476-4431.2004.04014.x.
^ "Minoxidil Warning". ShowCatsOnline.com. Retrieved 2007-01-18. "Very small amounts of Minoxidil can result [in] serious problems or death"

[Tracy C]

But what I also recall reading, most claim that the new transplanted hairs are DHT resistant and that they do not fall out. If what You say is true and even the newly transplanted hairs are prone to DHT falling out and have to be maintained by propecia and minox for life - then those surgeons are not telling the complete story or the truth at all.

Somehow you have misinterpreted what I said. I don't understand how you did that but you did. Let me try again.

The non-DHT resistant hair will continue to fall out. Please note that I said non-DHT resistant hair. Did you catch that? I said non-DHT resistant hair. Just to be redundantly clear, I am talking about the non-DHT resistant hair.

The transplanted DHT resistant hair should remain for many years - but the non-DHT resistant hair around the DHT resistant hair will continue to fall out. The result can lead to long term dissatisfaction with your hair transplant.

Depends what You consider legitimate. If You only endorce powerful corporate studies by FDA aproved manufacturers, I'd ask You - if Your main goal was profits and if Your company makes profits from lifetime bound customers, You wouldn't be in a hurry to invent a permanent one time cure or promote natural ingredients that can't be patented or bring in steady cash flow ?

Uh... Here we go with this nonsense again. It's not even worth commenting on. Believe it or not, I am trying to help you. But nonsense like this makes me loose patience.

Talking about uninformed...

Yes you are very uninformed. Cats and dogs can consume things that are poisonous to humans. Humans can consume things that are poisonous to cats and dogs. This is not an uncommon thing in the animal kingdom.

Now my patience with you has come to an end. You came to this forum, a forum that is called "The Bald Truth"... Since you clearly have no desire to accept the truth, you are in the wrong forum.

[StressedToTheBald]

The transplanted DHT resistant hair should remain for many years - but the non-DHT resistant hair around the DHT resistant hair will continue to fall out. The result can lead to long term dissatisfaction with your hair transplant.

Ok, thats a different story, I understand Your point now.

It's not even worth commenting on.

I was hoping You would leave a rational comment. After all, its the major issue, why with all advances in the medicine we still don't have a permanent cure for baldness, yet the pharmaceutical industries gain huge profits on long term exploatation of what is our(both Yours and mine) common baldness problem.

Yes you are very uninformed. Cats and dogs can consume things that are poisonous to humans. Humans can consume things that are poisonous to cats and dogs. This is not an uncommon thing in the animal kingdom.

Uninformed again. You are talking consumption, cats didn't eat minoxidil as far as I know. Previously You claimed it was allergy. Topical and toxic are the right choice of words. Name me another substance please, other than minoxidil, which simply dropped on animal's skin causes death and has no such effect when applied on humans. If You can find any substance like that, I'd really like to learn and to be proved wrong !

Since you clearly have no desire to accept the truth, you are in the wrong forum.

Let me be the judge of what truth is. If Your version of the truth is the only one and something all members of this forum should accept per se, then whats the point ? I thought this forum is for learning, exchanging views, concepts, ideas etc. If we all have to think and feel the same, then whats the point of forum discussions at all ?

[Winston]

Stessedtothebald, it would be wise to take Tracy C’s advice. She is just trying to save you from wasting precious time and money. She is 100% correct in what she is advising you, but one thing that I have learned form these forums, is that some people just need to learn things the hard way before they come around and realize that they wasted time and money that they will never get back.

[DAVE52]

Uh... Here we go with this nonsense again. It's not even worth commenting on. Believe it or not, I am trying to help you. But nonsense like this makes me loose patience..

You appear to lose patience quite easily

As I stated before show a little compassion when " trying to help " people ..

[Tracy C]

You appear to lose patience quite easily

Actually no. It was quite late when I was participating here last night and my patience was already thin to begin with from another member who was dishing out a boat load of BS tin foil hat talk. When this OP started up with his own tin foil hat talk I was simply done talking to him. He is clearly unwilling to accept reality and my time was better spent getting some sleep than trying to help someone who is too contaminated with disinformation to be helped.

[StressedToTheBald]

Winston, You mentioned wasted time and money. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but both minox and propecia involve time & money in lifetime terms, so hardly do they deserve to be called the cure for baldness either, and both carry significant potential hazards comparing to anything else.

They too take months to years to show significant results and hardly work for all. If I have to wait that long, use them for life and gamble with side effects, then from my perspective testing out similar natural compounds like beta sitosterol, msm etc. doesn't feel as bad alternative to try out and hope for the best.

I btw. am not persuading anyone to follow my example, and I believe everyone should follow what they believe is the best and safest way to regrow their hair.

And thanks Dave, I agree, a little more compassion wouldn't hurt. If nothing we all here suffer from the same problem, and as I said, we should exchange thoughts and ideas, experiences and results, instead of trying to impose singularity.

[DAVE52]

Good luck in whatever you choose

I personally don't belive there are any natural remedies that will stop, slow down or encourage hair growth . If there was we wouldn't be here

As other have recommened FDA approved minoxidil and propecia may slow down and encourage growth but you have to take them for the rest of your life . Once you stop hairloss will resume
Although some people , myself included , did experience the side effects and ceased taking the drug . It wasn't worth it IMO . As much as I wanted hair I also wanted certain parts of the body to function

HT - I look at those people with exceptional reults ( ex Spex & Joetronic ) and they had upwarsd of 4, 5 ,6 ( ? ) HT's

If I could offer any advice , as much as I wish I could follow my own advice , buzz it and get used to it buzzed .

Hairloss sucks
If it's destined to happen , it will happen .
We will never be able to get that full head of hair that we had as teenagers .
A HT performed by good doc will give the illusional of a full of head of hair but the real density will never be there IMO

Good luck

[Tracy C]

For the OP,

The truth is readily available to you and easy to find. The link is over there on the right. Just in case you are missing it for whatever reason, here it is:

http://www.americanhairloss.org/

On the off chance that you are willing to accept real evidence, here is a link to before and after photos of men who have used the two proven medications for their hair loss:

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medical-treatment/patient-photos/

You will never find honest legitimate before and after photos such as these of men who have used natural "treatments". It is very important that you know that this doctor is required to be honest and ethical about before and after photos to maintain his status as a member of the American Hair Loss Association and the IAHRS. These two organizations are patient advocacy organizations.

[StressedToTheBald]

Thanks Dave, You too.

For me, its not as much as problem of slowing down or stopping the process, it feels like where I was bald or thinning years ago, its pretty much the same today.. I don't notice any rapid progression. Major problem is regrowth itself.. the tiny colourless hair I have in bald spots simply don't grow nor get the colour of the rest of the healthy hair.

Side effects aside for a moment, problem with both FDA meds & natural remedies is also consistency. To be fair, even with natural remedies I was often bored and quit before time if no results are visible. And it all takes months if not years to see the results.

I don't want to gain hair and loose health in other department either. Your example tells a lot Dave. I wonder how many percent of people have quit due to side effects ? I mean, doctors and manufacturers by default show good results and success photos but the percentage of side effects and damage is rarely displayed along success photos.

I believe good hair transplant is good stuff. Sadly, best doctors and full transplants can end up with final cost of tens of thousands, something I cannot afford at this point in time. And as I said - bad doctor and cheap transplant with not enough grafts to achieve full density.. well thats not the solution either.