C5000 2nd HST yesterday

[ss1980]

From that Hasci quote, the way I read it and from what they have told me, I see it that after e.g 5000-6000 HST extractions (over 3 HST'S) then obviously you'll have around 1000 hairless gaps. Which on some people would be noticeable to the human eye and therefore they don't recommend you shave your head.

I'm not saying I agree with the above, however this is what I believe they are saying. Nothing more, nothing less.

It would actually be interesting to see what 1000 hairless gaps looks like on a normal FUE patient. Obviously the hair cut will have to be no more than a #1 grade. Does such a pic exist online?

1000 hairless gaps is nothing to lose with fue even if you are nw6 you have 20 000+ fu left on your head,
folicle-splitting technique makes it even less noticeable than regular fue as you dont have big gaps due to partial FU extraction and no white dots




arashi

you working on website, let us know when its done, could include forum section where people get together to discuss da latest and the greatest cons in HT industry

[Arashi]

No, not working on any website .. I've been giving all options quite a bit of thought and contacted some people, including some of the group who sued hasci before, on ideas how to proceed. Answers varied but all of them agreed that sueing would take a lot of effort and would cost quite a bit of money. Somebody in that group said that the best way to get them is via the "Medisch tucht college" http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medisch_tuchtcollege which is like an arbiter for people who want to take action against a doctor, but also this seems difficult. Another option I was playing around with was to get a doctor like dr Woods, who has been a fierce oponent of HASCI, to write an open letter to that magazine in which HASCI published, but that would take tons of work too.

In short, yeah a website might be the best way to continue indeed ... All other options are quite complicated and would demand a huge dediction of time, effort en money.

[ss1980]

Taking legal action would be waste of time and money, bunch of clinics tried and failed and they had financial power to go after him. Imo any ht dr would be reluctant to write anything publicly about any other clinic unless they have 100% proof but even then it can get messy, you could get sued for damages and end up writing apologizing letters. Hasci deliberately messed up 50 graft test to make suing them impossible as such test would uncover some nasty dirty secrets

Good website is the way to go about this , it is the cheapest and most effective way to spread the truth.

[gc83uk]

1000 hairless gaps is nothing to lose with fue even if you are nw6 you have 20 000+ fu left on your head,
folicle-splitting technique makes it even less noticeable than regular fue as you dont have big gaps due to partial FU extraction and no white dots

Exactly! The fact you said "less noticeable" backs my point up here.

The fact it is noticeable at all is what I said.

[gc83uk]

I asked them why Dean Saunders only went 3 times while obviously he needed a LOT more hair. This was there answer. They advise a maximum of 3 HST's if you want to shave your hair short. That just makes NO sense at all, if their regrowth fable would be true. Let's go with the 2.1 hairs/FU we agreed upon as FUE average and let's go with the 1.3 that Ironman and I found. And let's go with 3x a 1700 HST session. So that would be 3 * 1700 * 1.3 = 6630 hairs, which would translate to 6630/2.1 = 3157 FUE grafts. Average Joe can lose about 4000 FUE grafts before his donor starts hitting that 125 hairs/cm2 limit.

In other words, HST depletes donor even faster than FUE !

Of course that makes no sense. But what does make sense, is that hasci seems to think that if you shave your hair short and have a 3100 FUE (= 5000 HST) session, then that's about the limit before it will start to become visible. Which would make a lot of sense. In other words, they dont believe in regrowth themselves. HST is just a FUE. Exactly like we saw in those photo's of bulbs I posted.

OK let me play devils advocate here, if like you say, the average Joe can lose about 4000 FUE, are you saying that if this average Joe was to shave down to lets say a grade #1, then average Joe's donor after 4000 FUE wouldn't be noticeable to the human eye? I'm not talking about scaring/white dotting here, just hairless gaps.

As for the average fue graft being 2.1, I'm not even sure it's that high anymore, it seems the more I look around online at the results of FUE, the lower the figure gets, I actually think it's less than 2, I would go as far to say that the average is 1.90

Also when did Iron Man say 1.3? I definitely missed that one, he said to me over email that 60% were 1 hair grafts and 40% 2 hair.

Anyway without wanting to repeat myself, I believe 5000 HST grafts is roughly the equivalent of 4000 FUE grafts particularly when you factor in the recipient growth %.

[Arashi]

OK let me play devils advocate here, if like you say, the average Joe can lose about 4000 FUE, are you saying that if this average Joe was to shave down to lets say a grade #1, then average Joe's donor after 4000 FUE wouldn't be noticeable to the human eye? I'm not talking about scaring/white dotting here, just hairless gaps.

As for the average fue graft being 2.1, I'm not even sure it's that high anymore, it seems the more I look around online at the results of FUE, the lower the figure gets, I actually think it's less than 2, I would go as far to say that the average is 1.90

Also when did Iron Man say 1.3? I definitely missed that one, he said to me over email that 60% were 1 hair grafts and 40% 2 hair.

Anyway without wanting to repeat myself, I believe 5000 HST grafts is roughly the equivalent of 4000 FUE grafts particularly when you factor in the recipient growth %.

There are quite a few forums of course but on one particular there are tons of showcases for hairtransplants, both postes by patients as doctors. If you search that forum for 'singles' you will find quite a few threads where people reported how many singles, doubles, tripples and quadrupples they've got. I saw results varying between 1.8 and 2.5, checked about 10 cases, average seemed slightly above 2.

My own result is about 1.3 possibly even lower and Ironman had similar numbers. Also remember that 50 graft test, James Bald, he had similar numbers too. So 4000 FUE grafts would be about 2.1 / 1.3 * 4000 = 6500 HST grafts.

[Arashi]

I just looked it up, James Bald has 1.25 average: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12643640.jpg
150 singles and 50 doubles = 1.25 hair/FU.

Actually, I will see if I can find my own calculations and pictures, I think I remember my result was below 1.3 too ...

[gc83uk]

So 4000 FUE grafts would be about 2.1 / 1.3 * 4000 = 6500 HST grafts.

That is of course your opinion and statistically unproven as is my version of events:

4000 FUE grafts would be about 1.9 (0.85) / 1.4(0.95) * 4000 = 4857 HST grafts.

Iron Man has already told me around 1.4

You also didn't answer my previous question!

+ Even if you replaced 1.4 with 1.3 in the above calc, then it would only come out at 5200 HST grafts. Despite what James Bald Sample produced or what your sample produced, I've counted 1.4 on my own case and I.M has said as much to me about his case. So I'll be sticking to that 1.4 figure.

[Arashi]

That is of course your opinion and statistically unproven as is my version of events:

4000 FUE grafts would be about 1.9 (0.85) / 1.4(0.95) * 4000 = 4857 HST grafts.

Iron Man has already told me around 1.4

You also didn't answer my previous question!

+ Even if you replaced 1.4 with 1.3 in the above calc, then it would only come out at 5200 HST grafts. Despite what James Bald Sample produced or what your sample produced, I've counted 1.4 on my own case and I.M has said as much to me about his case. So I'll be sticking to that 1.4 figure.

Hehe, reasoning like that I can say "I found some 2.5 hairs/FU for FUE, so I will take THAT as an average" You can't just ignore James Bald case, nor my case. James Bald case is quite good actually, since it's the ONLY known case where HASCI provided hair/FU statistics.

[gc83uk]

You know it wasn't that long ago when you were saying 4000 FUE = 8000 HST

Now your saying it's 4000 FUE = 6500 HST