a case study of DONOR REGENERATION with the FUE-L Technique by Dr B. MOUSSEIGNE

[gc83uk]

Actually, the discussion was already over before it started.

Re-post it then.

I would be interested to hear Mathieu's answer to your post further up #53. Re:the patent issue

[Pentarou]

IronMan why do you give a shit about this? I'm starting to think you do, indeed, work for Gho.

I doubt it as Dr Gho seems like a clever guy, and I think he'd know the errors in being associated with an individual who is notorious on the hair loss forums, despite his knowledge and expertize.

[caddarik79]

It's such a relief to hear that someone who actually makes sense is booking result in the donor regeneration field, without posting fake photoshop pictures, stolen pictures from other doctors and what not. And regarding the pricing, I can surely understand it must be extremely frustrating if you can't pay for such treatment, but if you can beat Gho's results, I for one would be happy to cough up 17k. To me it's all about results. And to the people complaining I'd say: think about the bigger picture. More doctors researching and succeeding at this will ALWAYS mean lower pricing in the future.

All the best to you !

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff you are not helping.
I am OK to say: "let's give Mathieu a room to develop his discussions and show us what he has to show us, but here Arashi, even if I very often agree with you and I repeat, i'm not a Gho fan boy, neither am I desperate enough to go to India, LOL... but still you don't help your buddies who can already barely afford Gho, by saying you would go for 17K, definitely not helping.

it's great news, I don't know about what IM is underlining, copy cat and patented techniques, I hope not, I hope Mousseigne will have his own patients coming to bring a competition atmosphere that we all miss...but you kill it by just being sooooooooooooo ready to give your 17k...NOT everybody can Arashi, and hair loss community will thank you for that.
I am not saying that Mousseigne should do it for free, I am just reporting that if Gho is already considered too expensive, don't bring same or higher prices.

[Tacola]

Dear Mathieu,

I`m sorry for my poor english, but I would just say, as many has already mentioned, dont pay attention to everyone in here. There are too many people in here who is boiling over with critics and questions. In a way I honour them for that because it is important in a buisiness where there is just to many dishonest people and companies, but there is a time for everything. If someone has something new to share, then I would prefer If we wait until they have published everything that they have promised to publish (relative to time). Then we can take a deeper look and question it. Or else everything is just based on hypothetical individual thoughts, and that just makes this forum even more "untidy".

I`m looking forward to hear more from the research and not least about pricing on this treatment. I have also contacted Dr. Mousseigne by mail, but I have not gotten any back.

[Kiwi]

I'm asking this, because the METHOD per se (simply doing this, independent in what way or which "protocol" you use) is patented:

"(a) removing hair in the anagen phase from one or more donor areas in such a way that the hair stem cells which are responsible for hair growth are still attached to the hair removed;
and
(b) bringing the hair stem cells of the hair removed into contact with a medium which contains extracellular matrix components or substitutes there; and

(c) implanting the hair of step b) in the scalp."

It doesn't matter which tools or "vehicles" you use to accomplish these patent claims - simply using this method in general is patented. And THE reason, why such an approach is patentable at all, is, in fact, because if exactly doing that would be that easy and as simple as it sounds to accomplish all this (aka "this mythos") - we would have such procedures since hair transplants exists.

IM you can be such a douche bag.

Dr B. MOUSSEIGNE - if you ever got stung by some archaic patent law just setup clinics in countries that don't give a shit. And by don't give a shit I mean don't adhere to archaic copyright treaties.

If you do that we'll still gho *cough* i mean go...

[Arashi]

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff you are not helping.
I am OK to say: "let's give Mathieu a room to develop his discussions and show us what he has to show us, but here Arashi, even if I very often agree with you and I repeat, i'm not a Gho fan boy, neither am I desperate enough to go to India, LOL... but still you don't help your buddies who can already barely afford Gho, by saying you would go for 17K, definitely not helping.

it's great news, I don't know about what IM is underlining, copy cat and patented techniques, I hope not, I hope Mousseigne will have his own patients coming to bring a competition atmosphere that we all miss...but you kill it by just being sooooooooooooo ready to give your 17k...NOT everybody can Arashi, and hair loss community will thank you for that.
I am not saying that Mousseigne should do it for free, I am just reporting that if Gho is already considered too expensive, don't bring same or higher prices.

I certainly get your point Caddarik. But it's just a simple fact that the more doctors succeed at this, the lower the prices will be. So even if Mousseigne starts out with 17k treatments, it will only be a matter of time before prices will be driven down. Sure, I'd also much rather see 5k treatments but I'm 100% sure that Mousseigne will set his own pricing anyway. I guess my point merely is: let's just first wait and see what this doctor comes up with. If he CAN ask 17k, he'll surely will, regardless of what people on these forums want. But again, you've got to see it in the bigger picture. Right now Gho is the only doctor on earth who does donor regeneration. If Mousseigne succeeds at it, and I somehow believe he will, that would be the start of a new era.

[Arashi]

Contrary to you - I'm, and I will ALWAYS be, loyal to one doctor: It's Dr. Gho.

But if I would be such a "Gho fan boy" as many claim - why, for example, not having my first HST with Dr. Gho himself?

So what's THE reason for my "loyalty"?

Because without such guys like Dr. Gho as "weapon", such little copycats like Dr Mousseigne, wouldn't exist in this field. Otherwise perhaps with a delay of 10-20 years or so ....

Wars have always been very healthy for producing new weapons - and vice versa.

I have a LOT of respect for Gho. But if another, trustworthy, doctor offers something better, then I'm certainly not married to Gho. And I think competition is good for everybody. Hence I salute Mousseigne's efforts.

[caddarik79]

I certainly get your point Caddarik. But it's just a simple fact that the more doctors succeed at this, the lower the prices will be. So even if Mousseigne starts out with 17k treatments, it will only be a matter of time before prices will be driven down. Sure, I'd also much rather see 5k treatments but I'm 100% sure that Mousseigne will set his own pricing anyway. I guess my point merely is: let's just first wait and see what this doctor comes up with. If he CAN ask 17k, he'll surely will, regardless of what people on these forums want. But again, you've got to see it in the bigger picture. Right now Gho is the only doctor on earth who does donor regeneration. If Mousseigne succeeds at it, and I somehow believe he will, that would be the start of a new era.

I certainly get your point too, and I like your skills for dialog, I mean, I was not bashing or being hysterical, I was anticipating and pointing some facts...
The more affordable the technique is, the more clients>> more clients>> more chances to bring it mainstream very quickly and to see other very talented doctors giving up HT willing to surf on the right wave>> end of traditional HT and FUE.

Funny that I thought about the same kind of price, 7500 euros per 2500 grafts procedure is more fair... we would need a minimum of 10.000 grafts anyway to have at least the "illusion result" and more then 15.000 to start talking about good density.... it still brings a good 30.000 to 45.000 euros per patient...just to fix a God Damn hair loss, it is still huge benefit.

As I once said, rhinoplasty brings dramatic results and is also a risky surgery (real surgery) and the average is 3500 euros, the most talented docs will ask 5000.

When today, if you want a real good result for your hair, you have to give doctors a minimum of 50.000 euros, if you want to be close to Mother Nature, prepare a good 100.000 euros... this is insane.

I'll go and drink some Minoxidil, lol

* sure I know what you mean about the global picture, but Arashi, it's not like we are only 17 y old, I mean, we are in our thirty's, it's time to fix it.


BTW, when are you going to have your procedure, the 2nd?
I'm talking wit Deborah at the moment.


* I can proof my mind sanity, I know what Mousseigne has achieved on a famous patient, and yes he has good skills, so you see, I'm not there to bash, but let's hope we have an influence to bring the market on more reasonable prices.

* I still feel that Gho and HASCI are the top of the top and even working in the shadow on other stuffs that will be awesome.

[youngin]

I'm asking this, because the METHOD per se (simply doing this, independent in what way or which "protocol" you use) is patented:

"(a) removing hair in the anagen phase from one or more donor areas in such a way that the hair stem cells which are responsible for hair growth are still attached to the hair removed;
and
(b) bringing the hair stem cells of the hair removed into contact with a medium which contains extracellular matrix components or substitutes there; and

(c) implanting the hair of step b) in the scalp."

It doesn't matter which tools or "vehicles" you use to accomplish these patent claims - simply using this method in general is patented. And THE reason, why such an approach is patentable at all, is, in fact, because if exactly doing that would be that easy and as simple as it sounds to accomplish all this (aka "this mythos") - we would have such procedures since hair transplants exists.

(a) All versions of FUE extract stem cells. What you failed to add was this:

3. Method according to one of the preceding claims, in which hair in the anagen phase is removed by plucking the hair from one or more donor areas, followed by selection of suitable hairs in the anagen phase.

Its actually very surprising the Dr. Cole does not get sued for this because it seems like exactly what his CIT method is.

[534623]

All versions of FUE extract stem cells.

Sure, but HOW MANY of them?
The goal of normal FUE is to extract ALL hair follicle stem cells - otherwise THESE hair transplant doctors wouldn't get hair growth in the recipient area.
They think "the fatter the grafts the better". Sure, such fat grafts give a little bit more protection for the grafts when they store the extracted grafts in the cheap saline solution lol

What you failed to add was this:

You mean method number 3? An another patent claim?
That's right - even doing this is patented.

Its actually very surprising the Dr. Cole does not get sued for this because it seems like exactly what his CIT method is.

What exactly is Dr. Cole's "CIT" method?
I would be surprised if YOU would be able to describe the "CIT" method in detail. If you would know it, you would also know that there is no reason to sue Dr. Cole.

[FearTheLoss]

Mathieu, is there going to be any posts of the recipient numbers? and when can we expect Dr. Mousseigne to publish his research and make this procedure public?

Thanks,

FTL

[Mathieu]

Good some progress.
Thnak you Mathieu. More options. Now I'll wait patiently to see if Histogen, Aderans or Replicel manage to do something. Then maybe we can combine multiple routes. Who knows...

Sogeking, even though a regenerative donor would definitely increase the psychological comfort of undergoing surgery, it won't change the fact that it's still a surgery. As such, it could require your repeated commitment over time if hair loss keeps progressing. So, if you can maintain your hair in its current state, and if you're okay to wait until Histogen and the likes are released, then you'll be better off any type of surgery. Just stay informed and reassess your options when more new products/techniques hit the market.

It's very encouraging to see more doctors experimenting and reporting success with donor regeneration. I wish Dr. Mousseigne all the success with his efforts.
I think the key is the recipient growth. The donor looks great but the recipient is the other half of the proof. Mathieu, you said that you can't yet comment on the recipient but that there is reason to be optimistic. Is it possible to elaborate on this at all? Have you tested your technique on other patients?
Do you think it will be possible, with this technique, to extract 2500+ grafts per session or will you be limited?
I also think it's great that Dr. Mousseigne seems to be willing to share his technique and that it may be offered in North America one day.
This is all very exciting and I can't wait to hear more in the future.

Thanks JJJJrS, you're one of the good guys. I appreciate the time & effort you've put in studying some results of your fellow patients, and also your overall moderation. It's too rare to be unnoticed (and unappreciated).

I of course 100% agree with your statement regarding the recipient results. It would be pointless to achieve donor regeneration without getting steady regrowth of the transplanted hairs on the recipient area.
I said I have reasons to be optimistic because the first patients who were operated with the current protocol of the FUE-L technique are noticing regrowth in their recipient area. One patient got several small tests done around November 2012, but he isn't in Paris at the moment; Dr Mousseigne might be able to welcome him for a consult in early June; however, this case hadn't been scientifically documented, so it won't serve as publishing content for the forums. More recent cases should do the trick though. And other series of tests are about to be performed: 4 french patients (including myself) and most likely one british patient, in the next 4-6 weeks. These ones should benefit from excellent documentation, both in the donor and in the recipient areas.

Until the doctor has performed larger session (virtually, he could already transplant 1500+ FU in one day, but that would be ethically questionable, as the leap will be very big with the tests he's currently doing, and a cautious medical approach would rather suggest to proceed step by step, and not too much at a time), I can't tell you whether it will be possible or not to do 2500 FU transplants or more at once. Smart donor management may give us such possibilities, depending on the patients' characteristics (i.e. FU density + harvestable surface).

As I said before, it would be a pity for the patients to have only a handful of doctors offering this technique; that's why I feel Dr Mousseigne should collaborate as much as possible with other fellow doctors to make the FUE-L a new standard of care, be it in Europe or elsewhere in the world. I will personally activate my network of contacts in this industry to give this project the adequate direction.

I'm asking this, because the METHOD per se (simply doing this, independent in what way or which "protocol" you use) is patented:

"(a) removing hair in the anagen phase from one or more donor areas in such a way that the hair stem cells which are responsible for hair growth are still attached to the hair removed;
and
(b) bringing the hair stem cells of the hair removed into contact with a medium which contains extracellular matrix components or substitutes there; and

(c) implanting the hair of step b) in the scalp."

It doesn't matter which tools or "vehicles" you use to accomplish these patent claims - simply using this method in general is patented. And THE reason, why such an approach is patentable at all, is, in fact, because if exactly doing that would be that easy and as simple as it sounds to accomplish all this (aka "this mythos") - we would have such procedures since hair transplants exists.

IronMan, thanks for your inputs.

Although, as another user already emphasized, all grafts removed with modern (or even with obsolete) techniques are then transplanted with enough connective tissues containing various types of stemcells. That's basically why the hair regrow once transplanted in the recipient sites.
Regarding the medium storage, you have no clue of what Dr Mousseigne is using. It could include "extracellular matrix components" or not. I don't think I have an obligation to give you the answer here and now.
But, yes, Dr Mousseigne does definitely implant the extracted hair in the patient's scalp. What else would he do with it otherwise? Make a buzz-cut wig perhaps?

More seriously, what you describe - minus the ecm medium - is an indistinct type of hair transplant. It matches the principle behind both outdated or state-of-the-art techniques. The ecm medium's addition has also been used by quite a few other doctors in the field (ex: Dr Cooley, Dr Cole, Dr Mwamba, Dr Hitzig, Dr Jones, etc.). So if Dr Gho follows your advice, he might spend more time dealing with trials' documents than with HSI research

The corrections have been made.

Thank you, Winston. But a couple of letters are missing at the end of the message ("FUT & FUE).". Too bad that the bold/italic/underline didn't make it past the correction, but at least the message's content is correct now.

I think I speak on behalf of most, but perhaps NOT all Hasci patients in these forums, that despite being tagged as 'Gho fan boys', we want the likes of Dr Mousseigne to succeed just as we want Gho to keep on succeeding and improving his technique.

There is no loyalty to one doctor from me certainly, despite what many seem to think!

gc83uk, thanks, I appreciate your open-mindedness. That being said, I can understand if a patient manifests some loyalty to the doctor who brought him satisfactory results. But this loyalty shouldn't equal automatically slagging off other doctors; that's the "sectarian/soccer supporter's mindset" that I mentioned before, which is detrimental to the scientific point of view that everybody here should defend & vouch for.
In more practical terms: the world is big enough, and unfortunately there are enough baldies in it, for several doctors to co-exist and to compete healthily (if required).

Contrary to you - I'm, and I will ALWAYS be, loyal to one doctor: It's Dr. Gho.
But if I would be such a "Gho fan boy" as many claim - why, for example, not having my first HST with Dr. Gho himself?
So what's THE reason for my "loyalty"?

Because without such guys like Dr. Gho as "weapon", such little copycats like Dr Mousseigne, wouldn't exist in this field. Otherwise perhaps with a delay of 10-20 years or so ....
Wars have always been very healthy for producing new weapons - and vice versa.

The bold part is a derogatory statement. You don't know what Dr Mousseigne is doing, nor how he is exactly doing it, so you would be well-inspired to show some more respect, especially as I haven't shown any signs of hostility against the physician you pretend to (clumsily) defend.

Dear Mathieu,

I`m sorry for my poor english, but I would just say, as many has already mentioned, dont pay attention to everyone in here. There are too many people in here who is boiling over with critics and questions. In a way I honour them for that because it is important in a buisiness where there is just to many dishonest people and companies, but there is a time for everything. If someone has something new to share, then I would prefer If we wait until they have published everything that they have promised to publish (relative to time). Then we can take a deeper look and question it. Or else everything is just based on hypothetical individual thoughts, and that just makes this forum even more "untidy".

I`m looking forward to hear more from the research and not least about pricing on this treatment. I have also contacted Dr. Mousseigne by mail, but I have not gotten any back.

Dear Tacola, your english may be "poor" (even though I don't think so), but you speak words of wisdom. My initial posts were only meant to share with fellow patients the news that another option could rise soon. I hope it will. Time will tell.
Dr Mousseigne has been busy these past days with family business. He told me that he had received several emails, and that he would answer in detail asap. Thanks for contacting him anyway.

Mathieu, is there going to be any posts of the recipient numbers? and when can we expect Dr. Mousseigne to publish his research and make this procedure public?

Thanks,

FTL

FearTheLoss, thanks for your continued interest. To be honest, I don't think there will be recipient numbers in relation with this same patient, because the effort of documentation for the recipient area wasn't efficient enough ... -_-"
I can't announce yet a firm release date. In fact, the technique seems to be operational already, but Dr Mousseigne hasn't used it yet for larger sessions. From a strictly technical point of view, he could perform larger sessions right away (+/- 1500 FU/day). It'll only be a matter of months anyway before it's made public... if all the tests render satisfactory data.

[FearTheLoss]

any update on this?

[Mathieu]

Hi FearTheLoss,

thanks for your continued interest.

A 50 grafts test will be conducted this next wednesday. Do you want me to publish the documentation on the forum?
This time, there will be both donor & recipient analysis. Pictures will be taken with a reflex camera and a Proscope.
The patient is a senior member of the french-speaking forum, and has already undergone 2 FUE procedures.

[Mathieu]

I should also add that another french patient who received a FUE-L test (on Feb. 11th 2013) is currently experiencing regrowth.
He hasn't shared the pics yet, but you'll find his testimony by googling "hairlossforum norlan"; pics of donor generation are available in his personal thread, from page 3 on.