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Old 02-17-2012, 06:47 PM   #11
ryan555
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Originally Posted by chrisis View Post
StressedToTheBald, I read about a guy who had his blood tested prior to and after saw palmetto supplementation, and while his DHT fell, it also reduced levels of testosterone. It makes me wonder if that would cause the same drop in libido that finasteride caused. Thoughts?
That was me. That test ended up being completely bogus because I wasn't told that I need to take my blood tests first thing in the morning. I re-tested and showed no change in testosterone or serum DHT. However, I have read that SP does not reduce serum DHT, it only reduces DHT binding to the androgen receptors.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by chrisis View Post
StressedToTheBald, I read about a guy who had his blood tested prior to and after saw palmetto supplementation, and while his DHT fell, it also reduced levels of testosterone. It makes me wonder if that would cause the same drop in libido that finasteride caused. Thoughts?
I'll check out that thread.
I don't have side effects, not now when I use saw palmetto via tablet, nor I had any when I used it in tea form. The only 'side effect' when I used saw palmetto it in tea form was that I also used to take out and drink what was in the tea filter bag.. it probably dissolved poorly in my stomach and I used to have a feeling of bad breath in my mouth some time after.

Also, if You want more proof, here is the official story from the studies..

"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12006122
http://www.hairgenesis.com/hairstudy02.pdf

"Since AGA shares similar hormonal pathways with BPH, it was previously recognized that the pharmaceutical agents useful against BPH may offer some potential benefit in the treatment of AGA. The modification of Proscar (finasteride 5mg initially indicated for BPH), to Propecia (finasteride 1mg new indication AGA) serves as a paradigm for this rationale (Kaufmann 1999). Like finasteride, several botanically derived substances have also demonstrated the ability to inhibit key hormonal processes associated with BPH. Importantly, these botanicals have not been linked with the spectrum of negative side effects, adverse reactions, or teratogenicity, associated with the pharmaceutically derived alternatives (Klepser and Klepser, 1999).

Recently, several clinical trials have been reported demonstrating the efficacy of botanical compounds in the treatment of a number of androgen dependent conditions, and, specifically, BPH. For example, among 1,098 BPH patients tested in one recent study, the general safety profile of the lipsterolic extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr 320 mg/day), or saw palmetto berry extract, compared favorably with that of finasteride, and sexual side effects were less common with the extract than with the drug. In particular the use of this extract has not been associated with erectile dysfunction, ejaculatory disturbance, or altered libido (Wilt et al. 2000a). Remarkably, in another biochemical study, it was found that LSESr was a 3-fold more effective inhibitor than finasteride (5 mg/day) at concentrations adjusted to the recommended doses for BPH treatment. It should be noted that finasteride as indicated for AGA is dosed significantly lower (1 mg/day), suggesting, a 15-fold more potent level of inhibition at the recommended daily dose of LSESr (320 mg/day) (Delos et al. 1994)."
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:51 PM   #13
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Sorry, I should've recognised your name Ryan! I'm just so overwhelmed with information right now...

Would you personally recommend SP then? Have you taken any supplements after coming off finasteride that have helped in any observable way? I assume you were experimenting with saw palmetto because you needed to come off propecia because of your unrelated medical condition.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:54 PM   #14
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Thanks Stressed. Curious if you've observed any improvements in your hair condition since taking saw palmetto or any other supplement for that matter.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:56 PM   #15
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I have read that SP does not reduce serum DHT, it only reduces DHT binding to the androgen receptors.
Can You please provide a link or quote, I'd really really like to read more about this. If this is the case, it might just be the answer why saw palmetto doesn't cause side effects. Potential issue and what puzzles me is because DHT exists in prostate and hairs.. is it also free floating in the bloodstream.. in order for DHT to work, if androgen receptors are blocked then DHT cannot perform.. its like a key without the lock.
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Old 02-17-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
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Thanks Stressed. Curious if you've observed any improvements in your hair condition since taking saw palmetto or any other supplement for that matter.
I'm roughly ending my 1st month. What I am after is regrowth and regrowth in the bald spots.. I'm not after keeping what I already have or getting stronger hair, I want to see new hairs where I never had them before.. thats my goal. I have in that sense noticed several tiny new hairs on the spots where I never recall seeing any hairs in the past. These fine hairs are small and weak in colour.. but if they keep coming out in and I do need much more of them.. then that would be real deal brilliant achievement.

I've read that beta sitosterol should be given 6-12 months for visible improvements to be seen, and beta is much more potent than saw. In that sense saw alone should also be given at least that much time, if not more.
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Old 02-17-2012, 07:08 PM   #17
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Are you taking beta sitosterol too? Perhaps you could provide a list of what you take and why? I know many dismiss your views here but I'm listening to all

I assume because saw palmetto can't be patented there are fewer trials testing its efficacy, and also fewer people interested in promoting it because they can't make any money. Propecia on the other hand has been trialed more extensively and made billions of dollars, despite it being a mere afterthought of a medicine for the prostate.

It would be interesting if a study were done to compare the effectiveness of saw palmetto against finasteride and a control group.
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:02 PM   #18
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Are you taking beta sitosterol too? Perhaps you could provide a list of what you take and why? I know many dismiss your views here but I'm listening to all

I assume because saw palmetto can't be patented there are fewer trials testing its efficacy, and also fewer people interested in promoting it because they can't make any money. Propecia on the other hand has been trialed more extensively and made billions of dollars, despite it being a mere afterthought of a medicine for the prostate.

It would be interesting if a study were done to compare the effectiveness of saw palmetto against finasteride and a control group.
Yeah, from more recently I'm taking both.. One product I use contains only sterols and beta sitosterol, while other is intended for prostate health and it contains a combination of saw palmetto, beta sitosterol, pygeum africanum etc.

Saw palmetto I believe is much more popular for treating enlarged prostate - BPH. But You probably know that for the same condition more powerful dutasteride/proscar/5mg finasteride is prescribed as well. In my post about the studies, it even says SP is more powerful than 5mg finasteride. I 100% agree that saw palmetto cannot be patented and sold at some really heavy price.. therefore no powerful corporations push the advertising, studies etc. Besides that, FDA does not regulate natural compounds.. and doctors by default only prefer and describe chemical drugs.

I'd very much like to see an extensive comparison study of saw palmetto/beta sitosterol vs. propecia, both in terms of effectivness and comparison of dosages as well.

I use plenty of stuff ... Its too long to write again so I'll quote my list from another thread:


Quote:
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- Green tea. Grand stuff(antioxidants, catechins). I drink it, but extract is better, much more potent - actually up to 7 times more potent as far as I recall, so I am planning to add extract soon as well.
- ACV. Used it on and off, orally even up 3x daily dissolved in water. Used it topically as well. ACV should play a role most likely for fighting inflamation plus boosting circulation. Also research praises B2 procyanidin, I hope ACV contains it, at least some. Anyway, I'm starting on it again, been to the store yesterday, got myself 4 bottles of ACV, 2 with nettle extract, 2 with garlic extract (stinks like hell itself to be honest).
- Pumpkin seed oil. Used it, currently out, but I have stripped pumpkin seeds. Pumpkin oil is reported to block DHT.
- Biotin. Don't expect miracles. I used up to 10,000 units(a lot!) for a good amount of time, no miraculous results. Now I use it still, but in much lower doses, purely as an addition to the rest of the stuff.
- Inositol. Used it a bit. Still have some left, would like to use much more but its hard to find or order where I am. I'd go with 1000mg + daily.. Caffeine kills inositol btw, if You drink lots of coffee, maybe take even more.
- MSM. Use it, several grams daily. Also I have a topical 10% MSM warming balm, with herbs, vitamin E and what else not. What I'd really like to add is DMSO - and use it topically, but again its not available here and its a problem to order. Anyway, folicles are said to accept only DMSO form of MSM.
- Emu Oil. Never used it, never will. I'm a hardcore vegan, so nothing animal derived is an option for me.
- Saw Palmetto. Use it, 300mg daily. Not sure what my concentration is.. its not on the label. Beware - 300mg of 95% extract is not the same as 300mg 45% extract.
- Beta Sitosterol. Use it. 510mg daily. Plus I try to include some rare foods that include beta sitosterol.. avocados go with 75mg per 100g, pistachios go with nearly 200mg per 100g etc.
- Stinging nettle. Used it, use it on and off as tea, I guess 1000mg+
- Pygeum Africanum. Use it, 200mg daily. Its another reported DHT fighter.
- Curcumin. Use it, roughly once daily via my curry spice powder.
- Resveratrol. Haven't used it. But I'd like too. Also I need grape seed extract, which I have used in the past.
===
I've been out of some things, been shopping, finally more proteins. Anyway heres some more recommendations I use on and off:
- Arginine. Now will use 3500mg+ daily, via protein shakes. Boosts nitric oxide and blood flow to hairs !
- Cysteine. Now will use 1000mg+ daily, via protein shakes. Hair growth and structure protein I think.
- B100. Complex of all B Vitamins, each at least 100mg, also contains blend of green foods(alfa-alfa etc.)
- Vitamin C. I use 1500mg now, its time release + 200mg of bioflavonids.
- Full Spectrum Minerals. Its all minerals, 1000mg calcium, 500mg magnesium etc.
- Advanced Nutrition Complex (Multivitamins + Minerals)
- Black Pepper. Underestemated spice.
- Silica. Use it on and off via tea.
- Green, Black, White Tea. They're brilliant actually, very rich in antioxidants, plus reported for DHT blocking.
- Ginko Biloba. Used it in the past. Just bought a bottle of liquid alcoholic extract. Good both to drink and put on scalp.

Coming soon.. I plan to include ganoderma lucidum(reishi), ging seng etc.
I have great faith in ganoderma, I've seen study and graph - it blocks up to 50% DHT. Ain't cheap but might be the part of the TOP 3 along with beta sitosterol and saw palmetto.
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:27 AM   #19
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Thanks Stressed.

I feel totally overwhelmed with information right now... it's like being thrown into a pitch black room and having to find keys to a locked door. Gonna take a break and come back to this later
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:40 AM   #20
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I just take zinc as a general supplement, not specifically for my hairloss.

I've heard to can be good for your immune system and general cell function, so as long as you don't OD on it, I figure it can hurt. Though I wouldn't recommend just taking zinc to fight hairloss, that won't work! I take fin and use nizoral too.
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