Okay, but the Japanese study and many others that showed side effect rates supporting what Merck found should be completely ignored? I guess only studies that result in findings that you find pleasing should be considered, right? And you imply that WE have some sort of agenda!? Wow.
Originally Posted by StressedToTheBald
Dude... You donít seem to understand that people aren't idiots. Iím fairly certain that everyone can see straight through your bullshit. Honestly, its mindless drones like you that are making this PFS thing so hard to get behind. You sound exactly like one of those nuts that think vaccines cause Autism and other diseases.
A perfect example of this is when the infamous Dr. Crisler made an appearance (see the [Propecia Feared To Cause Permanent Impotence] topic). I was skeptical about PFS but willing to hear from some reasonable people to get their side of the story. Then Dr. Crisler comes in and experiences some sort of mental breakdown on the internet. After he was banned, I more or less decided the whole idea of PFS was quackery. This guy is one of the fringe doctors that actually treats people with PFS (even though he admitted that he has no idea how to treat it). Seriously, who would pay that guy for medical advice? Oops, off topic.
Anyway, you are doing very much the same thing. SoothSayer is actually making a pretty good case and remaining composed and concise, even though he is obviously very biased by his personal experience. You should maybe have a chat with him and get some pointers because every post you currently make sets back your cause about ten steps.
StressedToBald is already banned.... you won't get a response from him
Let me clarify a few things for you that you are not internalizing, possibly because you haven't even read the related study. The PLESS was a 4-year long term study that was intended to measure the long-term risks and benefits of finasteride. The researchers deemed it appropriate to follow up with patients after 6-months of discontinuing the drug because at this time they felt it was a sufficient time period for the body to return to equilibrium. Due to the fact it even titled a long-term study, the investigators waited long enough to determine that some men face irreversible side effects from finasteride use.
Originally Posted by 25 going on 65
Dr. Irwig's study, while not as powerful as the PLESS study, is meant to further delve into such details. He found that there were over 70 men, without any likely or even unlikely confounding factors, that did not recover YEARS after taking Propecia. It is possibly, albeit unlikely, that these men suffered from other causes due to the rigorous elimination rules he applied to make sure he was studying the purest cases.
Those who dismiss Iriwg's study at face value are simply unintelligent, or have some ulterior motive, conscious or otherwise. Every scientific study has strengths and weaknesses and his study absolutely adds value and information to the scientific knowledge base about Propecia usage. Those who outright reject it seem to lack the ability to understand nuance.
Really, this is your personal weakness if your opinion about a subject is formed due to your personal opinion of the messenger. I'm not familiar with his story, but I can surmise that he is a man who took Propecia, developed side effects and is now facing anger and despair due to the hopeless nature of his situation. Understandably, he would want to use the internet to find his unfathomable frustrations and perhaps he is not the most articulate individual on the planet. Your lack of sympathy and callousness towards his is utterly reprehensible. He may or may not present the most cogent arguments (many of his statements definitely do have validity to them) but in no rational way should your displeasure towards this one individual influence the reality of Propecia's side effects.
As for bias, you may be right. Many of us on this forum have become more dismissive of PFC stories than we otherwise would be, due to posters like StressedToTheBald hijacking every active thread with yellow-press hysteria about finasteride (and ignoring anyone who points out the problems in his misinformation).
You have admitted yourself that you are biased, mainly because of "Stressed to the Bald" and since this is the case it is not really worth further discussing such matters with you since you have said yourself you are biased which closes you off to scientific fact and logic.
Soothsayer, you're a man after my own heart. I had a negative experience on finasteride but I still prefer to try to approach the topic without any bias, unlike most people posting here.
All in all, it seems to me that the jury is out on the safety of the drug. That's the most honest thing anyone can say, but few are saying it.
Question: if I had side effects on 1.25mg of finasteride, what do you think about a lower dose, e.g. 0.25mg or 0.5mg? Would this be foolish? Could I possibly find a balance? I'm at a loss what to do right now.
They waited long enough to determine that some men faced side effects from finasteride use that didn't resolve after six months.
Originally Posted by SoothSayer
"Meant to further delve into such details." You mean delve into - or search for - them in the first place, since irreversible finasteride side effects had not been demonstrated in a scientific study. And I don't consider his ASES results to have conclusively demonstrated this claim, either, by any stretch of the imagination. Nearly every active member on this forum would agree, including some who are extremely weary of finasteride. (Guess we all might be unintelligent and/or holding ulterior motives, sorry.)
Originally Posted by SoothSayer
You're welcome to feel differently about it, but I probably won't be interested in arguing the point further.
He's never taken finasteride. He was probably just trolling.
Originally Posted by SoothSayer
I do lack sympathy for anyone who hijacks two dozen or more active threads with hysterical anti-finasteride spamming within 1-2 weeks. It would seem the administrators felt similarly when they banned his account.
Bias is inherent in all people, regardless of the topic in question. Logic doesn't give you the superhuman ability to banish your biases; it is the effort to make sound determinations and choices despite your biases. (If you live in the US and ever sit through a jury selection process, the judge will likely tell you something similar: "We're not looking for unbiased individuals, because there are none; we're asking you to give fair consideration to the evidence in this trial despite the biases you have.")
Originally Posted by SoothSayer
It's those who claim not to have any biases who completely lack credibility on the topic.
So, my biased opinion is that PFS could potentially be real. But the fact, regardless of my opinion, is that it hasn't been scientifically demonstrated to exist. I hope that will change if this is a real condition, but so far it hasn't.
That said, if you feel it's not really worth further discussing such matters with me, I'll just have to respect that.
Good luck to you.
StressedToTheBald: Commentary From Spencer Kobren
Dear Baldtruthtalk Members,
It has come to my attention that the recently banned user StressedToTheBald has launched a online smear campaign against myself, this forum and all TBT resources. After allowing StressedToTheBald to make more than 470 posts in an approximately 1 month period, my moderators were compelled to ban this user after receiving more member complaints concerning his forum activity than ever received about a single user since the creation of baldtruthtalk.com.
Baldtruthtalk was created to provide a safe place for hair loss sufferers to share their experiences, learn about effective hair loss products and services and to gain support from others dealing with hair loss. We are extremely tolerant of all opinions on this forum, whether I or my staff agree with them or not. However, once we receive consistent, legitimate complaints about a poster who our members believe to be disruptive, disrespectful or incendiary, we are compelled to act in the best interest of our users and this forum. We can not, and will not allow a single poster to destroy the experience of the thousands of hair loss sufferers who come to Baldtruthtalk each day in search of help and hope for their hair loss.
I am no stranger to both online and offline smear campaigns. As a consumer advocate and in some instances a whistleblower, I have amassed many detractors over the years. I have been publically accused of fraud, embezzlement, extortion, tax evasion, and racketeering...Among other things. All of which were completely fabricated and publically, verifiably false.
Smear tactics are most always intentional, premeditated efforts to undermine the reputation of an individual who is perceived to have some sort of power, usually in industry or politics, and many times these tactics are used to undermine effective arguments or critiques. When faced with this type of smear, I always draw strength from the most famous Consumer Advocate and victim of a massive smear campaign, Ralph Nader.
Back in the 1960s, in order to smear Nader and deflect public attention from his campaign for more car safety, General Motors engaged private investigators to search for damaging or embarrassing incidents from his past. In early March 1966, several media outlets, including The New Republic and the New York Times, reported that GM had tried to discredit Nader by hiring private detectives to tap his phones and investigate his past, and hiring prostitutes to trap him in compromising situations. Nader later sued GM and settled for more than $250,000.
For the past two years I have been viciously smeared by two individuals, both who work in the hair loss industry. One, was sued by the state of Illinois, as well as in a class action civil suit for allegedly swindling hair loss sufferers out of tens of thousands of dollars, and the other is a hair transplant surgeon who was caught defaming one of his colleagues, ”anonymously” online. I believe I was made the target of these attacks for several obvious reasons, one of which being that I was asked by the State of Illinois to provide expert testimony in the case against the individual being accused of fraud.
With that said, it has come to my attention that StressedToTheBald is not only posting completely false and defamatory reports on internet complaint sites and hair loss forums about me and my organizations, he is also reposting the defamatory posts made by the two individuals discussed above as some sort of “proof” that I am a “fraud.”
Being the victim of online smear is not fun, but what these Internet thugs fail to realize is that Internet forensics is far more sophisticated than most anonymous posters believe.
As Winston Churchill once said:
“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
I welcome all questions about the defamatory postings made by these three individuals. StressedToThebald, is not entitled as he might believe, to destroy the online experience of hair loss sufferers in search of help, and he certainly is not entitled to publically and falsely accuse an individual of crimes simply because he didn't get his way on an internet message forum.
Founder, American Hair Loss Association
Host, The Bald Truth Radio Show
I am not a physician. My opinions and knowledge concerning hair loss and its treatment are based on extensive research and reporting on the subject as a consumer advocate and hair loss educator. My views and comments on the subject should not be taken as medical advice. Always seek the advice of a medical professional when considering medical and surgical treatment.
Yeah,he's running off at the mouth on another forum HLT and dug up a year old post and posted in it and started a thread of his own about what went down here.
Last edited by SKI; 02-22-2012 at 11:49 PM.
Reason: left out a word
only read through stressed to the balds posts on this thread and dont see what is so bad about them, not sure what he said on other threads though. If you don't believe pfs is for real thats fine because its not like any of you will help in finding a solution for it.. Any posting on this form trying to convince people in cyberspace that pfs isn't "all in your head" is pointless. If a solution comes it will be from members of the scientific community through research, not through postings on a message form. Those of us suffering from this need to do a better job of trying to direct scientific research at the problem. Is it something epigenetic, or something due to the reduction in nitric oxide synthase activity in erection tissue which 5a reductase inhibitors have been shown to cause? At this point who knows, but the underlying biological mechanism needs to be determined. To borrow a excerpt from an editorial in the JSM on propecia "The dictum remains the same: if you play with sex steroid hormones, you play with sexual function."
I'm somewhat in the middle here.
StressedToTheBald had some good points but lacked control about how to make them in a diplomatic manner. As pointed out, he was obviously entitled to his opinion and accommodated on the forum, but sometimes his opinion wasn't called for or irrelevant to the topic at hand.
seattle30, one thing does alarm me about this forum is how dismissive most people are about the potential side effects of finasteride/propecia. Listening to the show on Sunday was actually almost offensive to those who have suffered them.
Including myself, I personally know 4 men who have used the drug.
2 had side effects and had to stop taking it.
1 has side effects and takes it anyway.
The other I haven't asked.
This is just my personal experience and people can take it or leave it, but I have no reason to lie or exaggerate - I want the drug to work without side effects and will actually be trying it again at a lower dose! (foolish maybe, desperate - yes)
The 2% figure that is quoted in studies is probably wrong if you take an unbiased look at the topic. There is simply no way so many men would be coming forward if the side effects were equivalent to placebo, and I think it would be responsible and ethical if more people admitted it instead of this perpetual denial just because they were ok. At the very least we should accept that we don't know!
For those confused about StressedToTheBald's ban, it probably was because of these reasons:
-He consistently disrupted threads with scare mongering alarmism about finasteride, no matter what the threads were about. Example:
"OP: Hey guys I have been considering a transplant for about six weeks. I've read that the density of your donor area can make a significant difference, how can I tell how good my donor is? Can the doctor just measure how many follicles per square cm I have?
STTB's response: I don't know, maybe. But whatever you do, do NOT take the hazard man-poison drug known as propecia!!! Many men have permanently ruined their lives, it is now an official public health hazard, all the top MD's and professors now speak against it! Anyone on this forum who says otherwise is a paid propecia promoter! They are part of Merck's marketing strategy! DO NOT gamble with your health on this dangerous drug, it will soon be banned from the market!"
-He consistently portrayed his alternative remedies (mostly "natural" supplements) as 100% safe, which actually varies with dosage and from person to person. This constitutes health-threatening advice in some cases.
-He started blatantly ignoring any input from other posters unless they were agreeing with him in some way.
-Several forum users, including myself, began reporting his spam posts when they turned up in places they didn't belong. This happened quite often, considering there were more member complaints about STTB than about anyone else who has ever posted here. Ever.
The real disgrace in all this is that STTB is now smearing Spencer, this website, and most everyone on this forum. I have read his smears on four different websites, all posted within the last 24 hours, with just a casual Google search. (They aren't just insulting, they consist of ridiculous conspiracy theories.)
If he has figured out that he doesn't have to register as "StressedToTheBald" on every single website, god knows how many other places he has copied-pasted the exact same smears. He is doing this on consumer feedback sites and hair loss sites as well.
If he's not a troll, he is badly in need of psychiatric care. Either way, he didn't belong on a serious hair loss forum like this one.
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