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Old 04-29-2012, 06:25 PM   #51
Davey Jones
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Originally Posted by the_charger View Post
...

I got my hands on the full version of this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12639651

...

so this should put final nail in the coffin of this debate I think! researchers dont even know why propecia cause side effects, but know that DHT isnt needed to keep your healthy sexual function.
Hey, if you don't mind and like doing a little research anyway, would you mind checking to see if they measured baseline estrogen levels before and after dosing? It always seemed to me that if a sizable amount of testosterone is not converted into DHT, it would be free to convert to estrogen. But that's just a guess.

Maybe men who experience symptoms from finasteride have abnormally high levels of aromatase, and without all that 5-alpha-reductase, testosterone is left with only the excess aromatase converting it into estrogen. High estrogen in men is associated with the same side effects reported on finasteride. That would explain why only some people have symptoms (as most men don't have excess aromatase), and why symptoms only present for those few they do present for when the individual starts on finasteride (because before, 5-alpha-reductase was competing with the excess aromatase).

Anyway, that's just a guess. I'm probably just talkin' out of my ass. It would be interesting to see if that study said anything about estrogen or aromatase levels.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:05 PM   #52
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How callous to describe the experiences of men who are suffering as "propaganda". You're remarkably disrespectful and I don't even know what you're trying to "prove" anymore.
honestly I have no other word to describe it.. i think i was first thinking about propecia almost 2 years ago and this was exactly the kind of stuff I found on hair loss forums and on the internet, it was propaganda, very similar to the stuff STTB was saying. it is actually a LOT better now because people dont as easily fall for the stuff and dont stand for it like they used to, but back then I dont have any way to describe it. It isnt disrespectful at all, because a lot of the stuff I was reading and the stuff tha tkept me from taking propecia was 100% BS!


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My point was and remains, that sexual dysfunction caused by finasteride affect an unknown number of men, and apparently far more than the studies indicate.
you havent shown me any proof that this is the case, which is why I disagree with it. it's perfectly fine if this is just your opinion, and we can leave it at that, but I very, VERY strongly disagree because of the number of studies that say otherwise.


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Further, there are many methodological flaws with the studies currently at our disposal. It's clear that we don't know enough about the drug and opinion is unanimous that more research is urgently needed.
I agree that the studies we have now arent perfect, but the methodological flaws you pointed out are borderline ridiculous. but I do agree with you more research is needed. there are plenty of studies that all show the same side effects rates, but I think guys who have these serious persistent side effects need to be studied somewhow.. but I honestly wouldnt know where to begin on that. I hope there are some studies being done on these guys who know what they are doing and have an idea what to look for.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:12 PM   #53
the_charger
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Originally Posted by Davey Jones View Post
Hey, if you don't mind and like doing a little research anyway, would you mind checking to see if they measured baseline estrogen levels before and after dosing? It always seemed to me that if a sizable amount of testosterone is not converted into DHT, it would be free to convert to estrogen. But that's just a guess.
unfortunately it doesnt look like they checked any baseline estrogen levels, just testosterone and DHT. these figures werent mentioned specifically, but they just said that men who started in the study showed no difference in testosterone/DHT levels regardless if they had sexual problems or not.


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Maybe men who experience symptoms from finasteride have abnormally high levels of aromatase, and without all that 5-alpha-reductase, testosterone is left with only the excess aromatase converting it into estrogen. High estrogen in men is associated with the same side effects reported on finasteride. That would explain why only some people have symptoms (as most men don't have excess aromatase), and why symptoms only present for those few they do present for when the individual starts on finasteride (because before, 5-alpha-reductase was competing with the excess aromatase).

Anyway, that's just a guess. I'm probably just talkin' out of my ass. It would be interesting to see if that study said anything about estrogen or aromatase levels.
No, this is a good theory.. I unfortunately dont even know much about hormones, but I did read that estrogen levels might go up a bit when taking finasteride because DHT has been lowered. Im not sure if this would cause side effects, but it might! Maybe some guys (2%) just cant handle high estrogen, or maybe their estrogen levels are already high and propecia pushes it up over the edge? I really dont know.. I havent seen any studies that can really explain even why propecia causes side effects.. It would be nice if we could get some input from some medical experts in here!
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:29 AM   #54
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What motive do people who describe their experiences on Propecia have, to engage in a propaganda campaign against it?

If you took the time to check my post history on this forum I didn't even start mentioning side effects until I experienced them, and even then I simply came off the drug and patiently waited for them to abate. Now that they seem to be persisting 3 months later, I'm asking more questions and relaying my experiences to others so they can be properly informed. That can in no way be described as propanda, and suggesting so is offensive and insensitive.

I do agree that ultimately it comes down to opinion. You suffered no side effects, and I did - not only temporary but persistent, and undeniably related to taking Propecia. Perhaps we're both biased, but it's hard not to be biased in my position, which you'll probably never relate to.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:09 PM   #55
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What motive do people who describe their experiences on Propecia have, to engage in a propaganda campaign against it?
what motive did STTB have exactly then? he clearly had a bad experience on propecia and campaigned against it, all he posted was BS and he even went to other forums to badmouth spencer.. I dont know if you were on hair loss forums like 2 years ago but this stuff was way worse back then!


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If you took the time to check my post history on this forum I didn't even start mentioning side effects until I experienced them, and even then I simply came off the drug and patiently waited for them to abate. Now that they seem to be persisting 3 months later, I'm asking more questions and relaying my experiences to others so they can be properly informed. That can in no way be described as propanda, and suggesting so is offensive and insensitive.
please re read my post, I never once said this propaganda came from you or even anyone else that currently posts on this forum, i said this was what I saw years ago before I even started propecia.


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I do agree that ultimately it comes down to opinion. You suffered no side effects, and I did - not only temporary but persistent, and undeniably related to taking Propecia. Perhaps we're both biased, but it's hard not to be biased in my position, which you'll probably never relate to.
yes I can agree with this, but in the grand scheme of things my experience and your experience arent really that helpful to people looking at starting on propecia.. people want to know how safe propecia is on a whole, and their chances of having side effects. they cant read your experience and expect to have persistent side effects any more than they can read mine and expect to do perfectly fine on it..
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by the_charger View Post
what motive did STTB have exactly then? he clearly had a bad experience on propecia and campaigned against it, all he posted was BS and he even went to other forums to badmouth spencer.. I dont know if you were on hair loss forums like 2 years ago but this stuff was way worse back then!
STTB (StressedToTheBald) stated several times that he never tried Propecia. I don't think it makes any sense to tar victims with the same brush, as if we're all insane or something? Is this the implication of your associating him with me? There are many people on the other side of the Propecia fence who conduct themselves questionably too.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:53 PM   #57
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STTB (StressedToTheBald) stated several times that he never tried Propecia. I don't think it makes any sense to tar victims with the same brush, as if we're all insane or something? Is this the implication of your associating him with me? There are many people on the other side of the Propecia fence who conduct themselves questionably too.
You a real mess man.

Go to another site where they are constantly knocking Propecia.

It helps us, go whine somewhere else.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:33 PM   #58
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You a real mess man.

Go to another site where they are constantly knocking Propecia.

It helps us, go whine somewhere else.
You're one of those that came to mind.

What are you even doing here? You don't offer anything to others in the way of advice or support. You're not particularly well-researched, articulate or intelligent. All of that would be fine, except you're rude and unpleasant.

Either contribute something to the discussions other than your unnecessary attacks, or kindly refrain from commenting.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:44 PM   #59
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How callous to describe the experiences of men who are suffering as "propaganda". You're remarkably disrespectful and I don't even know what you're trying to "prove" anymore.
I completely agree. His comments and points have devolved to a point where he seems to have no other objective other than to provoke other members and unsuccessfully attempt to delegitimize the claims that finasteride has associated risks.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:04 PM   #60
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I completely agree. His comments and points have devolved to a point where he seems to have no other objective other than to provoke other members and unsuccessfully attempt to delegitimize the claims that finasteride has associated risks.
Too bad while your crying about side effects the rest of us are maintaining our hair.
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