1. How difficult is to do the autocloning method? Hitzig says it is "extremely tedious". How much time do you need for each autocloned hair?
2. Have you observed the "triplication" observed by Dr. Hitzig? Dr. Hizig saw that he planted 50 plucked hairs, and 150 hairs grew!!
3. Regarding the female patient who got 1500 autocloned hairs.
Did you plant 1500 hairs, or did you plant only 500 hairs and grew 1500 hairs?
11-09-2010 05:11 PM
Spanish Dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlao
This is getting interesting Dr. Rassman has just put another comment on his blog. http://www.baldingblog.com/
wow, this comment is not very cheerful :(
11-09-2010 05:28 PM
mlao
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanish Dude
wow, this comment is not very cheerful :(
Dr. Rassman and Dr. Bernstein are two of the most honest and renowned doctors in hair restoration If they are studying the applications of Acell in their practice I think that it is a strong endorsement and it will have weight thru out
the industry. And while it is still too early to start celebrating I for one am cautiously optimistic.
In part I at around 13:00 Hitzig says he implanted 50 plucked hairs, soaked in Acell, into scar tissue, and these hairs multiplied and the result was 150 hairs growing after 8 months.
He says that for every one plucked hairs that is implanted 3 hairs will grow. Im very excited
11-12-2010 09:25 AM
KeepTheHair
Does anyone know if this is going to be more expensive than other hair transplants and roughly when we will be able to get something like this done?
Anyone?
11-12-2010 09:53 AM
mlao
Dr. Cooley is already offering it in his practice and I think I read it was $10.00/hair
So it is still expensive.
11-12-2010 10:43 AM
level
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlao
Dr. Cooley is already offering it in his practice and I think I read it was $10.00/hair
So it is still expensive.
$10.00 a hair?! That's a stiff price tag. That means it would cost well over $100,000 to get a full head of hair. I have to give Acell props, but the future of hair restoration is in regenerative treatments. What I mean by regenerative is that no serious incisions have to be made-you go in, get some injections on your scalp, and your free to continue on with your life as if nothing had happened.
Acell is definitely changing the hair game but the procedure seems too tedious, which is probably why the costs are so high. I wonder if they will formulate a way of using Acell to regenerate hair...That would be cool!
11-12-2010 11:09 AM
mlao
Dr. Cooley when interviewed by Spencer said that the largest case he has done so far is a 1500 hair/graft case on a women. I would think in the beginning that most doctors will attempt small procedures and in doing so perfect the process over time.
11-12-2010 11:34 AM
KeepTheHair
Yeah... this is why acell hair transplants don't excite me much at all. If the price is going to be the same...or more than a normal hair transplant. Only people with a big budget and very late state of hair loss will benefit.
For most people a normal hair transplant is probably even better because of the price.
Could acell perhaps be used another way to make hair?
11-12-2010 11:55 AM
mlao
I don't think anyone knows exactly how this will eventually fit in, but there are advantages. Think about it.
We're all counting on Histogen or Aderans having a product out soon.
I would love to see that but the timeline keeps shifting so until it's available it's a non-issue. Acell is something that we have now which can be perfected as doctors learn more about it. If it proves successful I'm sure the price will come down and the size of the session will go up. Plus you have less limit on donor supply and less scaring and tightness in the donor area.
Also hair loss is progressive. Meds can slow it down and stop it temporarily but until there is a magic bullet it will continue to some degree in everyone.
Having one more useful therapy Like ACell could be a great advancement.
11-12-2010 06:48 PM
Westonci
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlao
I don't think anyone knows exactly how this will eventually fit in, but there are advantages. Think about it.
We're all counting on Histogen or Aderans having a product out soon.
I would love to see that but the timeline keeps shifting so until it's available it's a non-issue. Acell is something that we have now which can be perfected as doctors learn more about it. If it proves successful I'm sure the price will come down and the size of the session will go up. Plus you have less limit on donor supply and less scaring and tightness in the donor area.
Also hair loss is progressive. Meds can slow it down and stop it temporarily but until there is a magic bullet it will continue to some degree in everyone.
Having one more useful therapy Like ACell could be a great advancement.
Indeed, if this procedure is currently expensive it would be caused by a supply and demand issue.
From what im read only Dr. Cooley and Hitzig are performing this procedure properly, so you can imagine why it would be so expensive. If he were to charge anthing less than $1 per hair than we would see a long line up for this procedure.
Once more doctors start performing this procedure than we can see a significant drop in price, maybe even a black market?
11-12-2010 07:10 PM
Spanish Dude
10 USD per hair is 20 USD per FU (typically 2 hairs/FU).
Can anyone confirm this price?
11-12-2010 09:35 PM
miozambrotta19
This is all great news, but lets say it take another 6months to a year to perfect this procedure and someone ops to gte this procedure done, it will take another 8months to a year to get the full growth. Thats almost 2 years of waiting to get some transformation on your scalp. For those who need more then one procedure that will be 2-4 years of waiting. If i need to wait this long i might as well wait and get the real cure from Histogen and Aderans. I know nothing is set in stone with these companies but by summer or 2011 we should know where Aderans and Histogen stand. Its all a waiting game.
11-13-2010 02:52 AM
mlao
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
This is all great news, but lets say it take another 6months to a year to perfect this procedure and someone ops to gte this procedure done, it will take another 8months to a year to get the full growth. Thats almost 2 years of waiting to get some transformation on your scalp. For those who need more then one procedure that will be 2-4 years of waiting. If i need to wait this long i might as well wait and get the real cure from Histogen and Aderans. I know nothing is set in stone with these companies but by summer or 2011 we should know where Aderans and Histogen stand. Its all a waiting game.
I really doubt many people will be getting it done in the next six months.
At this stage it is still experimental and the price is prohibitive for most people.
There are also unanswered questions (is the hair DHT resistant, will it cycle more than once, Can you mimmic follicular units, how large a session can be performed)
I still have a great deal of faith in Histogen, Aderans, Allergen, and even QR678 but they are not "real cures" yet.
To have something like Acell that some of the most respected transplant doctors in the world are starting to experiment with now is a big deal. Who knows what they will discover about its use during their research.
I am optimistic about anything that will move the game forward and right now this is it.
11-13-2010 05:09 AM
KeepTheHair
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
This is all great news, but lets say it take another 6months to a year to perfect this procedure and someone ops to gte this procedure done, it will take another 8months to a year to get the full growth. Thats almost 2 years of waiting to get some transformation on your scalp. For those who need more then one procedure that will be 2-4 years of waiting. If i need to wait this long i might as well wait and get the real cure from Histogen and Aderans. I know nothing is set in stone with these companies but by summer or 2011 we should know where Aderans and Histogen stand. Its all a waiting game.
Pretty much agree with you.
A hair transplant is a good option right now, definitely. A lot of people can benefit...
but... Acell doesn't really change anything. It came somewhat too late. In the future if it gets used differently it will definitely be useful. You could also do other types of transplants and things and I am sure it will have a lot of uses.
I know for me and a lot of others it won't change a thing. I can get a transplant without it and have more than enough donor hair.
By the time the price comes down(if) and by the time I could get it or afford it it will be completely irrelevant because of the future treatments that are probably coming out.
Hairtransplants are great...but it kinda sucks that you have to wait a full year for the results and a lot of the times(lets admit it) hair transplants don't really look that great or get a good yield.
We need something better than hair transplants.
But they are still the best thing and I would definitely have already gotten one if I could afford multiple hairtransplants and had $ if it failed for repairs etc.
11-13-2010 02:08 PM
Westonci
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
This is all great news, but lets say it take another 6months to a year to perfect this procedure and someone ops to gte this procedure done, it will take another 8months to a year to get the full growth. Thats almost 2 years of waiting to get some transformation on your scalp. For those who need more then one procedure that will be 2-4 years of waiting. If i need to wait this long i might as well wait and get the real cure from Histogen and Aderans. I know nothing is set in stone with these companies but by summer or 2011 we should know where Aderans and Histogen stand. Its all a waiting game.
The problems with Histogen and Aderans is they keep pushing there release dates.
I remember histogen saying they would be ready in asia by 2013, and now on there website it says 2014.
11-13-2010 03:19 PM
KeepTheHair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westonci
The problems with Histogen and Aderans is they keep pushing there release dates.
I remember histogen saying they would be ready in asia by 2013, and now on there website it says 2014.
That sucks. But I always knew they probably were going to push it to a later date..since thats what always happens in the world of hair loss solutions.
Where do they say 2014?
11-13-2010 03:48 PM
ryan555
I am an investor in Histogen. The plan is still to release the HSC in Asia (excluding Japan) in 2013, and in the US and Europe by 2015. They are conducting their next trial phase in Singapore in February. I am assuming that if this product does everything it is supposed to do, most of you will figure out a way to get to Asia.
11-13-2010 06:54 PM
Westonci
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan555
I am an investor in Histogen. The plan is still to release the HSC in Asia (excluding Japan) in 2013, and in the US and Europe by 2015. They are conducting their next trial phase in Singapore in February. I am assuming that if this product does everything it is supposed to do, most of you will figure out a way to get to Asia.
"The next clinical trial of HSC is currently in planning stages, and is scheduled to begin in Singapore in early 2011, with plans for pan-Asian approval in 2014. Estimated U.S. market introduction of the injectable for hair regrowth in the treatment of male pattern baldness is 2015, with potential for earlier introduction in certain identified countries."
11-14-2010 09:09 AM
miozambrotta19
Ryan555 is right. I heard the same thing from the CEO and trials manager of Histogen. If all goes well they still plan to release this in Asia in 2013(hopefully the 1Q). Then the only problem would be finding a Doctor who offers it in Asia, but that shouldnt be so hard to find. Im crossing my fingers and hoping the first 2 phases go well and we should hear something by summer. I have no clue what Aderans are up to. In 2003 there release date was in 5 years, and there stil in phase 2. I read somewhere that there release is 2014 but i highly doubt that unless the phase 2 trials show great results and are able to get funds fast for phase 3 trials. If Acell shows that hairs will cycle, i wouldnt mind get a couple sessions with thata nd then getting an injection of histogen of aderans to fill in. That would be ideal.
11-14-2010 10:26 AM
ryan555
Nothing is guaranteed, but they are getting a lot of cooperation in Asia and it seems likely that it will be made available by 2013. As far as finding a doctor to give the treatment, there will be a well-developed "hair tourism" industry around this product if it works as well as tests show. It will be available like botox injections (not just hair transplant doctors) and it should be very easy to get it.
11-14-2010 02:49 PM
Westonci
ACell MatriStem for Hair Loss – Dr. Gary Hitzig Displays His Preliminary Results
Ryan555 is right. I heard the same thing from the CEO and trials manager of Histogen. If all goes well they still plan to release this in Asia in 2013(hopefully the 1Q). Then the only problem would be finding a Doctor who offers it in Asia, but that shouldnt be so hard to find. Im crossing my fingers and hoping the first 2 phases go well and we should hear something by summer. I have no clue what Aderans are up to. In 2003 there release date was in 5 years, and there stil in phase 2. I read somewhere that there release is 2014 but i highly doubt that unless the phase 2 trials show great results and are able to get funds fast for phase 3 trials. If Acell shows that hairs will cycle, i wouldnt mind get a couple sessions with thata nd then getting an injection of histogen of aderans to fill in. That would be ideal.
On the forum, Miozambrotta19 says
I spoke with CEO of Histogen over email and she told me the soonest would be 2014 for overseas and 2013 would be impossible. Figure, if they start phase 1 and 2 trials in Feb of 2011 that would run for one year before results are given. Then phase 3 would start some time in late 2012 or 2013 and then would run for another year before results are given and then it would hit the market. Without funding it could get pushed back again in later trials as it got pushed back a couple times for these first trials. 2013 would be literally impossible. There is promise in these technologies but no one has any idea how they'll go. I want to be optimistic about it but there still in the beginning phases. Anything could happen. The initial phases were promising, and hopefully the next trails show even better efficiency but at this point all we can do it cross our fingers and wait. Lest not over optimistic as we know what happened with other companies and technologies.
So did you speak to her since?
11-14-2010 08:24 PM
miozambrotta19
The latest updte is that they are still planing to release something in Asia(not japan) in 2013, and for introduction in America by 2015. Again this is all on the notion that phase 1 and 2 go well and that they are able to get quick funding for the phase 3 trials. We will have to wait till summer to see the early results. If anyone wants to email them, they can go to the Histogen website and find the emails. If the these first 2 trials go well we should more then likely see fast funding. Lets just hope this happens.
11-15-2010 01:45 PM
miozambrotta19
What i dont get is how Dr cooley and Dr hitzig say 2 different things in there findings. Dr Cooley has said hes not able to multiply hairs with Acell, but Dr hitzigf says hes implanted 50 hairs on one patient and saw 150 hairs after. Dr Hitzig shows more then one patient with multiplication. Dr Hitzig also shows that he can mantain donor hairs in a strip procedure and reuse them where Dr cooley mentions he see no new hairs in a strip but one better looking and feeling scars. Why do these 2 doctors show different results or am i missing something
11-15-2010 06:18 PM
HairRobinHood
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
What i dont get is how Dr cooley and Dr hitzig say 2 different things in there findings. Dr Cooley has said hes not able to multiply hairs with Acell, but Dr hitzigf says hes implanted 50 hairs on one patient and saw 150 hairs after. Dr Hitzig shows more then one patient with multiplication. Dr Hitzig also shows that he can mantain donor hairs in a strip procedure and reuse them where Dr cooley mentions he see no new hairs in a strip but one better looking and feeling scars. Why do these 2 doctors show different results or am i missing something
The simple answer is: They used different methods in the usage of ACell.
Autocloning (plucking and transplanting plucked beard and/or scalp hairs):
Concerning “Autocloning”, in his presentation Dr. Cooley didn’t explicitly mention in which way (or if at all?) he applied ACell for Autocloning. He is just talking about “Hitzig’s Autocloning technique” in HIS presentation – that’s all.
ACell and Follicular Unit grafting (standard hair transplant):
Dr. Cooley: “Acell MatriStem™ powder - Mixed with saline and applied to grafts”
Dr. Hitzig: “Plucked hairs further coated with ACell.” – “Plucked hair soaking in ACell suspension.”
Dr. Hitzig: “ACell was injected in the recipient region during procedure.”
Dr. Hitzig: “Every single hair I put in there let grow 3 – 4 hairs.”
Dr. Hitzig: „ACell [powder mixed with arterial blood from the donor area = ‘suspension’] being injected directly into scalp.”
There’s the difference. That means, to multiply (plucked) hairs, you also need in addition to an ECM (e.g. ACell) suitable GROWTH FACTORS (e.g. PRP) – and NOT e.g. saline solution (leads to apoptosis!!).
11-15-2010 06:50 PM
mkamph
this concerns me. i'm going in for the autocloning with dr. cooley and thought that he and hitzig were using the same soaking technique.
anyone heard if cooley is adjusting his technique?
In the description Plucked hair + ECM is used, and they quote the following
"It is the object of this invention to overcome one or more of the above-mentioned problems, and thus to provide a method for the reproduction of human hair in which a long culturing time is not required. Extracellular matrix is produced by the (support) cells around the hair follicle. From our own research it is apparent that this Extracellular Matrix is essential for hair growth. In this invention the hairs are no longer cultured in a keratinocyte culture medium but are simply immersed for a short time in a medium which contains extracellular matrix or substitutes therefor. The hair is then put back. With this technique several hairs can grow as a result of putting back a single hair. The method according to the invention is moreover patient-friendly, because only plucked hairs can be used and no invasive method or anaesthesia is necessary, the patient does not have to come back for a second treatment after"
"According to this invention it is thus not necessary to culture the hair follicle cells; merely immersing the hair in the medium which contains extracellular matrix components or substitutes therefor is sufficient. The hair is then put back in the scalp, after which several hairs grow out of this one hair."
In the last step c) the hair of step b) is implanted in the scalp. This hair - or at least the part of the hair to which the stem cells are attached - has been in contact with a medium which contains extracellular matrix components or substitutes therefor, and probably as a consequence of this the hair stem cells which are located in that part have been 'activated1, so that they too can develop into hairs. As a consequence of this the implantation of the single hair of step b) results in the growth of one or several hairs ."
11-15-2010 07:16 PM
KeepTheHair
If every hair transplanted grows 3-4 hairs and this gets much better yield than FUE/FUT then this is definitely something truly awesome, actually.
If a 2000 graft transplant can be done, you can get ~7000 hairs growing...good hairs. I don't know anything about shock loss or whatever but I am pretty sure this could restore most hairlines.
If you get 2 procedures done or more...then you could have some really thick hair growing! But that would take a years worth of salary for any normal person and also almost 2 years of waiting for results?
Definitely awesome... Just time and money are both not so sweet with this. But I think it's a good option for anyone.
I'd like to know if it will interfere with future solutions though, like regenerative medicine etc.
Would most likely cost a fortune...but I guess thats normal for something this new.
11-15-2010 07:53 PM
HairRobinHood
apoptosis
Quote:
Originally Posted by HairRobinHood
There’s the difference. That means, to multiply (plucked) hairs, you also need in addition to an ECM (e.g. ACell) suitable GROWTH FACTORS (e.g. PRP) – and NOT e.g. saline solution (leads to apoptosis!!).
By the way ...
Krugluger W, Moser K, Moser C, Laciak K, Hugeneck J.
Enhancement of in vitro hair shaft elongation in follicles stored in buffers that prevent follicle cell apoptosis.
Dermatol Surg. 2004;30:1–5; discussion 5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14692918
@mkamph - stop stop stop concerning your concerns:
I've no idea what Dr. Cooley currently is doing. I just mentioned what HE mentioned in his ACell presentation. That means, maybe I just understood something wrong and maybe he currently is doing similar procedures like Dr. Hitzig - no idea ...
11-16-2010 08:06 AM
miozambrotta19
Another question im confused on. Do regular transplaned hairs multiply or both plucked and reg multiply?
In the presentations and on forums Dr cooley never once mentioned that he has seen multiplication in implanted hairs, only Hitzig as noted this. Quite confusing.
11-16-2010 09:19 AM
Westonci
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
Another question im confused on. Do regular transplaned hairs multiply or both plucked and reg multiply?
In the presentations and on forums Dr cooley never once mentioned that he has seen multiplication in implanted hairs, only Hitzig as noted this. Quite confusing.
Actually he did, he mentioned hair sprouting out like an "offshoot" from a tree in his presentation. I think it was the in the 4th video
1. Do you sell your acell matristem to the general public?
2. How much does it cost?
Response:
Thank you for your interest in ACell's regenerative medicine products and
technology. Our MatriStem® medical devices are available only by
prescription through a United States physician, hospital or clinic. We would
be happy to address any questions or concerns your physician may have and
provide technical information on applications and procedures for our
MatriStem products.
Please ask your doctor to explain the benefits and costs of ACell’s
MatriStem products. If your doctor is interested in speaking with a sales
representative in their area please have them email us or contact us by
phone at 1-800-826-2926 Monday-Friday 9-5 Eastern Standard Time. Thank you.
11-16-2010 10:56 AM
miozambrotta19
It would be useless to buy? How would you use it, and what would you use it for?
11-16-2010 03:41 PM
Westonci
Quote:
Originally Posted by miozambrotta19
It would be useless to buy? How would you use it, and what would you use it for?
Experiment, as well as curiosity.
For example I could use a dermaroller on my scalp, than apply the powder matristem, and who knows i might get a reversal in hairloss or something or nothing at all.
