If my hair loss is not significant, but just thinning at this point, will using a dermaroller help prevent further hairloss?
08-04-2013 02:11 PM
BudskiiHD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westonci
If my hair loss is not significant, but just thinning at this point, will using a dermaroller help prevent further hairloss?
Nope. Get on finasteride.
08-04-2013 02:21 PM
PatientlyWaiting
You mean while also using minoxidil?
If not, keep in mind that MPB is a gene. You can't just roll little needles on your head and it will stop the hairloss. I'm pretty sure the whole point of a dermaroller is for more minoxidil absorption.
08-04-2013 06:20 PM
Notcoolanymore
I use the dermaroller and have had some success. I am also treating my hairloss with other meds also so who knows if the dermaroller is actually doing anything. I do remember seeing a thread around here were they posted some promising information on the use of the dermaroller so I would not totally rule it out as being an affective treatment.
08-04-2013 07:21 PM
john2399
Do any of you guys use dermaroller more than 1nce a week?
08-04-2013 11:06 PM
Notcoolanymore
I use it about 3 or 4 days a week. I usually wash my hair, then while in the shower i use the dermaroller all over the top of my head. After, I shampoo with regenepure dr. After showering I apply minox.
08-04-2013 11:10 PM
john2399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notcoolanymore
I use it about 3 or 4 days a week. I usually wash my hair, then while in the shower i use the dermaroller all over the top of my head. After, I shampoo with regenepure dr. After showering I apply minox.
Ive heard that its dangerous to use minox right after dermaroller, to wait atleast 24 hours. Have you experienced any negative effects using minox right after?
08-05-2013 12:13 AM
sausage
Is the dermaroller proven to do anything, or are you guys running some spikes over your head, drawing blood, just in hope?
08-05-2013 12:14 AM
PrettyFly83
Hey Guys
Check out the Derma Rolling Thread, lots of details here along with 100 person peer reviewed 3 month pilot study
...I'm pretty sure the whole point of a dermaroller is for more minoxidil absorption.
No. It has nothing to do with absorption. It's all about wound healing. Wound healing triggers an embryonic state in the skin which makes it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins. It is important not to use the roller every day, as this requires the healing cycle to be completed before it is triggered again.
08-05-2013 04:25 AM
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting
You mean while also using minoxidil?
If not, keep in mind that MPB is a gene. You can't just roll little needles on your head and it will stop the hairloss. I'm pretty sure the whole point of a dermaroller is for more minoxidil absorption.
MPB is a phenotype, not a gene. You also wrongly assume that drugs are the only thing that can affect the expression of genes.
08-08-2013 04:48 AM
Marshmalo
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dude78
No. It has nothing to do with absorption. It's all about wound healing. Wound healing triggers an embryonic state in the skin which makes it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins. It is important not to use the roller every day, as this requires the healing cycle to be completed before it is triggered again.
No, it is everything to do with absorption, micro-needling is said to massively increase absorption of any topical you put on your skin, thats why women are using it along with vitamin creams for good skin.
Your right that it does cause the skin to heal with is supposed to increase collagen levels but for hairloss the main principle is to increase expsoure to minoxil.
I'm no docter and neither are you but I really think once a day might be too much.
I would recomend using it just after the shower, the skin is softer then and it's less painful.
08-08-2013 02:39 PM
Chromeo
It is neither "nothing to do with absorption" nor "everything to do with absorption", I believe it is somewhere in between.
Yes, it is said that microneedling aids with absorption of topicals such as Minoxidil, but in this more recent study the focus is on the wounding and regeneration process. Minoxidil is not used until 24 hours after the wounding session, so increasing absorption is not the purpose of this experiment in this case.
08-08-2013 06:53 PM
PatientlyWaiting
Well then I stand corrected. Don't know much about this Dermaroller thing but I highly doubt that rolling a $20 dollar object on your head will be a good treatment for MPB.
08-08-2013 08:55 PM
FearTheLoss
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting
Well then I stand corrected. Don't know much about this Dermaroller thing but I highly doubt that rolling a $20 dollar object on your head will be a good treatment for MPB.
tell that to Follica
08-08-2013 08:58 PM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting
You mean while also using minoxidil?
If not, keep in mind that MPB is a gene. You can't just roll little needles on your head and it will stop the hairloss. I'm pretty sure the whole point of a dermaroller is for more minoxidil absorption.
1) You're wrong on every account.
2) Its not about just 'rolling' little needles on your head.
3) Minoxidil absorption has NOTHING to do with it.
The objective and facts are:
Dermarolling is not meant for absorption but for WOUNDING. It is a known FACT that when wounding occurs, WNT and FGF-9 is induced during the healing process. Keep in mind WNT is the same stuff Histogen is using for their method of injections, so this already holds weight. FGF-9 was shown to grow a significant amount of hair on mice but when removed, hair did not grow. A similar pattern occurs during the wounding process in human scalp, however FGF-9 is produced in lower numbers. It is however thought that the addition of Minoxidil AFTER wounding will elevate PGE2 levels which in itself also elevates FGF-9. FGF-9 along with WNT both *should* induce growth in hair. Both of which theories are documented and published by, you guessed it, Dr. George Cotsarelis. Read here:
“We showed that wound healing triggered an embryonic state in the skin which made it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins,” says senior author George Cotsarelis, MD, Associate Professor of Dermatology. “The wnts are a network of proteins implicated in hair-follicle development.”
As for FGF-9, here's what he has to say:
Quote:
In one embodiment, the present invention provides a method for generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject, comprising the steps of: (a) disrupting an epidermis of the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region; and (b) contacting the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region with minoxidil, thereby generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject.
To further give evidence of this theory, heres an article from 1986 mentioning a scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:
We also know that in thinning hair, scalp also thins. However dermarolling alone increases collagen production which thickens up skin. This was mentioned by Spencer on his show not long ago in regards to the dermarolling approach. In my opinion (though this is my only theory) a good environment for hair follicles will also play a role, so essentially a DHT free zone with good skin should provide results. I myself will be trying out EMU oil as its known to improve skin. The addition of dermarolling, minoxidil, and a DHT inhibitor like RU58841 or an oral one like Dutasteride should provide results.
So the dermaroller only costs between $10-$40 and will *at least* help with absorption. This, you are right about. However, there is *no reason* not to replicate this study and see what happens.
PrettyFly83 is already seeing results and has posted a link to the dermarolling thread, I would strongly suggest you read over it and at least give it though:
Well then I stand corrected. Don't know much about this Dermaroller thing but I highly doubt that rolling a $20 dollar object on your head will be a good treatment for MPB.
When it comes to hair loss products, it is smart to be skeptical. With that being said, the the higher cost of a treatment does not always equate to better odds of effectiveness. If that was true all those expensive laser treatments would be the most effective treatments.
At a $20 price tag, I think the price is right to give it a try.
08-08-2013 09:18 PM
Notcoolanymore
The before and after pics above suck. It is really difficult to tell of a person actually grew more hair if the after pic is showing the person with longer hair.
08-08-2013 09:23 PM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notcoolanymore
The before and after pics above suck. It is really difficult to tell of a person actually grew more hair if the after pic is showing the person with longer hair.
You need to see an optometrist.
08-08-2013 09:42 PM
Notcoolanymore
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellouser
You need to see an optometrist.
I'll look into it. Come on dude patient 2 had his head buzzed in the first pic and has it grown in on the second pic.
08-08-2013 09:48 PM
PatientlyWaiting
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellouser
1) You're wrong on every account.
2) Its not about just 'rolling' little needles on your head.
3) Minoxidil absorption has NOTHING to do with it.
The objective and facts are:
Dermarolling is not meant for absorption but for WOUNDING. It is a known FACT that when wounding occurs, WNT and FGF-9 is induced during the healing process. Keep in mind WNT is the same stuff Histogen is using for their method of injections, so this already holds weight. FGF-9 was shown to grow a significant amount of hair on mice but when removed, hair did not grow. A similar pattern occurs during the wounding process in human scalp, however FGF-9 is produced in lower numbers. It is however thought that the addition of Minoxidil AFTER wounding will elevate PGE2 levels which in itself also elevates FGF-9. FGF-9 along with WNT both *should* induce growth in hair. Both of which theories are documented and published by, you guessed it, Dr. George Cotsarelis. Read here:
To further give evidence of this theory, heres an article from 1986 mentioning a scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:
We also know that in thinning hair, scalp also thins. However dermarolling alone increases collagen production which thickens up skin. This was mentioned by Spencer on his show not long ago in regards to the dermarolling approach. In my opinion (though this is my only theory) a good environment for hair follicles will also play a role, so essentially a DHT free zone with good skin should provide results. I myself will be trying out EMU oil as its known to improve skin. The addition of dermarolling, minoxidil, and a DHT inhibitor like RU58841 or an oral one like Dutasteride should provide results.
So the dermaroller only costs between $10-$40 and will *at least* help with absorption. This, you are right about. However, there is *no reason* not to replicate this study and see what happens.
PrettyFly83 is already seeing results and has posted a link to the dermarolling thread, I would strongly suggest you read over it and at least give it though:
Thanks for the info. I have been away from the forums for a while. I will check all of this out more thoroughly. I will even give a try my self, if I see it's worth it.
08-08-2013 09:48 PM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notcoolanymore
I'll look into it. Come on dude patient 2 had his head buzzed in the first pic and has it grown in on the second pic.
His vertex should be much thinner, as its clear he's got thin hair in that area before the trial.
1st patient showes wild results, hard to dispute that unless the results are somehow doctored.
08-08-2013 09:53 PM
Notcoolanymore
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellouser
His vertex should be much thinner, as its clear he's got thin hair in that are before the trial.
1st patient showes wild results, hard to dispute that unless the results are somehow doctored.
You are right about patient one. His results look pretty good. I am not saying the dermaroller is not effective. I use it. Hopefully I will get good results with it. Have you tried it?
08-08-2013 09:59 PM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notcoolanymore
You are right about patient one. His results look pretty good. I am not saying the dermaroller is not effective. I use it. Hopefully I will get good results with it. Have you tried it?
You need to read my dermarolling thread. There's 30+ pages (and counting) of useful information on dermarolling:
Yes, I've been dermarolling. Today was my second session, I made sure to be harsh on my scalp though since last week I didn't see much redness and did not notice much bleeding either (a good indication of actual wounding) though the study showed mild erythema was enough (basically until the scalp was red). You do need to apply minox twice a day though, and wait 24 hours after dermarolling. Applying minoxidil on a bleeding scalp could give a very high heart rate, so its advised you DONT apply it immediately. Healing of the scalp doesnt occur until (i think) days later anyway so immediately applying minoxidil probably wouldn't make a world of a difference anyway.
Read the thread though!
08-09-2013 12:33 PM
Axel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notcoolanymore
I am not saying the dermaroller is not effective. I use it.
You use it 3-4 times a week and apply minox immediately after rolling... you basically have been over-dosing minox into your bloodtream. That can't be good.
Also, you must use a 1.5mm roller. Read the study, it is quite interesting.
08-09-2013 03:54 PM
PatientlyWaiting
Patient 2 is a bit tricky to analyze though, because the before picture has flash ad the after picture does not. If you take a picture with no flash, your hair will appear thicker than it is, because of the lack of light, it will look dull, therefore darker=thicker. But with that said, it is obvious that the after picture is much better, his hair is in much better shape in the after picture. But then it's also appears to be longer.
08-09-2013 04:34 PM
the_dude78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmalo
No, it is everything to do with absorption, micro-needling is said to massively increase absorption of any topical you put on your skin, thats why women are using it along with vitamin creams for good skin.
Your right that it does cause the skin to heal with is supposed to increase collagen levels but for hairloss the main principle is to increase expsoure to minoxil.
I'm no docter and neither are you but I really think once a day might be too much.
I would recomend using it just after the shower, the skin is softer then and it's less painful.
Would you at least check out the thread and the study other users have linked to? In this case it is not about absorption..
08-10-2013 12:47 AM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmalo
No, it is everything to do with absorption, micro-needling is said to massively increase absorption of any topical you put on your skin, thats why women are using it along with vitamin creams for good skin.
Your right that it does cause the skin to heal with is supposed to increase collagen levels but for hairloss the main principle is to increase expsoure to minoxil.
I'm no docter and neither are you but I really think once a day might be too much.
I would recomend using it just after the shower, the skin is softer then and it's less painful.
Youre completely wrong, and even Dr. Cotsarelis would say so should his findings prove true about wounding/healing with induced WNT and FGF-9. I've explained the proccess in general here:
Also, I've tried dermarolling with a 1.5mm roller AFTER showering thinking that my skin will be softer and will hurt less.... not exactly true, at least for me.
