Histogen Update - Spencer Kobren Speaks With Dr. Craig L. Ziering

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

Not disagreeing with you but isn't Aderans the same idea as Intercytex? My question is that if Intercytex failed, why is Aderans still trying the same? Hopefully it's for a positive reason.

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Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference. Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

Rich dawg, you hit it straight on. I think that truly is the only hope to actually have great hair again. Histogen most likely wont do it on its own but a combination of things. If Histogen can regrow some hair or prevent further thinning, than you can get transplants and maybe future plucking/no scar unlimited donor transplants.

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I'd second that, I've been following the Hitzig Cooley & Cole discussion about the Acell, my views is that if Acell can be used to enhance the growth of lung tissue then I am sure it can be used to grow follicles lol - hair loss science by no means moves at exponential rates, but doctors, researchers and the general hair loss community combining to share ideas is what is going to really propel better treatments.

I mean maybe Aderans will gain stronger/thicker multiplied extracted stem cells by following the methods used by Histogen in terms of how they create that embryonic cell state, maybe they're already doing this who knows.

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Originally Posted by clee984

There's a book called 'Ending Aging' by Aubrey De Grey (who you probably hang around with knowing the circles you move in, Dawkins) in which he gets magnificently indignant about how the Bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to railroad stem cell research because of their own religious convictions. And he even states (whether this is true or not I don't know, I'm just taking his word for it), that they fall down by their own definition of what constitutes "life". These clumps of cells could never and would never become "alive". They would be disposed of anyway, whether they were experimented with or not. Tbh, I didn't understand a lot of the science, but I like him, despite the man clearly being mentally ill. Interesting book.

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Well it doesnt matter what the US did, China has helped push stem cell medicine, Western companies have no option now but to either start R&D or lose out in the near future.
Big pharmas are already feeling the pain as the products patients are coming to an end, or they can no longer rehash old medication into new medication, they can no longer lobby to restrict this technology. If they don’t join and progress this tech they are out of business. we ARE SEEING THE END OF 19/20 CENTURY Medicine.

With regards to this histogen tech, not only will it help bold people but they will gain revenue from a wider audience as people that have a bit of a receding hair line will opt forward for a small fix, burnt individuals might have the chance to re growth their hair, cancer patients the list it endless.

The next break through is tooth enamel/tooth regeneration and this is only a few years away in fact trials of enamel should be starting this year and tooth regeneration in 2 years time.

Those 2 products will end up making trillions your looking at a complete different lifestyle for many, benefiting society as a whole.

This is what we need as a society stem cell medicine it will reduce government costs, reduce insurance industry costs, yet produce amazing revenue for those companies.

Banks are dipping into these companies and not into big pharmas as much as they used to. You price the product at the right level you'll make huge profits, you price it our of reach of the average person the profits will not be as great, another issue these companies that can produce this product will have control over it, not like HT etc... and there is demand for hair regeneration products BIG demand.

BTW Intercytex product was a success, the problem wasnt about the product but seeking investment, now this is more of a cultural problem in the UK. In the UK if you have a novel idea you find it hard to find investors, UK investors dont really liek to take that much risk, on top of that they really didnt sell themselves to big investment banks while at teh same time it was unfortunate that the crunch happened.

Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!

As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me.

-Max

Thanks guys. Well iam not into this one guy you spoke about. I choose Richard.Dawkins for specific reasons as a user name. The reason is simple, people who are so extremely devoted to god will just let their potential and their ideas slip.

Like someone here said, "christians" discuss about stem cells as if you go to hell when you use them, i say nonsense. A lot of other countries are so far involved in stem cell cures that in lets say three years or so they will make our "technology" obsolete to a certain point, thats for sure.

You can see those impacts these days, no one is really investing any more in our average US/European biotech lab anymore. Instead investors are going to the east. And who can blame them.

If i would be a millionaire and there is someone in the east with a working concept and successul pre trails for lets say a cure for cancer. I would gladly invest in his company rather then some "christian" biotech lab in the bible belt or so.

Another thing we see in europe is the medical tourism. Where people actually travel to other countries to get something fixed or repaired. The sad thing is, over the years more and more of those countries developed higher medical standards whereas the county i live in is pretty much stuck on "theories and concepts".

Let me put it this way if Cooley/Hitzig and Histogen are the asian biotech company then we have FUT-Puppet Pluck surgeons in our country.

Oh and Dr Ziering said something pretty important, to actually educate patients with upcoming treatments today. In germany well they wouldnt tell you anything about Acell even if you would put a gun to their head.

US-Hairloss sufferers should at least be glad to a certain point, theire surgeons are willed to go new ways, even if it would take 2 or 3 years, at least some of them are doing something.

But also the hairloss community has the obligation to educate their surgeons, i send some emails to some surgeons in germany and contacted some via phone. Guess what only ONE was interested in considering Acell. They asked me if i could help them with some informations etc.

The others were not interested or came up with stupid arguments like "This wont work its snake oil"

So i did at least what i could for german hairloss sufferers, i hope you guys get also the motivation to convice your surgeons to use or try or experiment with Acell.

And thanks Dr Ziering for answering the questions here. The interest is actually far beyond everything you can imagine. The same goes for Acell "multiplication"

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Originally Posted by Dr. Craig Ziering

I must admit that I am very impressed and delighted with the level of interest and depth of knowledge displayed by this forums posts.
It is great that we all share such passion for hair.
I would like to comment on a few things .
1.HSC is not for sale now and if and when it is , it will have very specific and well substantiated proof for any claims that it makes.
2.I can only speak for myself but I would bet my peers have the same sentiment.
I welcome any product or technique that benefits people suffering from hairloss regardless of its origins.
3.I am in this field because I love it and I have dedicated over 20 years to the field and my patients and maintain that it is a blessing and a priveledge to do what my staff and I do.
4.I am becoming involved with a hair restoration practice in the UK ,and with the help of several of my colleagues we hope to raise the level of care,knowledge and skills in the UK and educate patients about all their options.
I like many of you just hope to have a positive impact on peoples lives.
Thank you for including me in this process.

Doc Z

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But if you are involved then you must have a price range for the product?
Hair loss regeneration is a matter of time, i guess companies are rushing to be the 1st to release this product before others to build up a client base and their market share. If this product truely works then more men would seek help. We all know HT is the very last resort and an act of desperation, having a few injections matter of 30 mins +/-. the issue with all the other hair loss products is time consuming and remembering to take the meds etc..

If the product works hair loss centers will be like dental surgeries, you would go in hand over cells come back in 2 week get treated and leave. Freeing up time for both the individual and the doctor, everyone wins.
The reason i know there would be a big demand for a cell based hair regeneration product, like the ones in progress, i have spoken to a few people about hair loss and when i mentioned a couple of injections for reverse hair loss their eyes open up and they all said they would opt for it, and this is from a small sample of 23 men.

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Originally Posted by fontanajul

As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me.

-Max

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It’s not dramatic! The Bald truth show, and this forum have helped my life more then words can describe. Before I found this, I felt very alone and unhappy. Thank you Dr. Ziering for taking the time to help us all out.

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?

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Originally Posted by jasinfla

Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!

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Dr Zeiring, if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "like" for having the sign off "Doc Z"! It makes you sound like a comic book supervillian :D

The stem cell debate always reminds me of the napster controversey: The technology is there. It isn't going to go away just because you click your heels together and say there's no place like home. Trying to deny it or stop it, for religious or any other reasons, helps nobody.

Yeah but it slows the success down. And this is annoying ;-)

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Originally Posted by LarryDavid

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?

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If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.

Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65% of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?) Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair. My question to all the sceptics is: Where's the shed? HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.

So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.

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Originally Posted by UK_

If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.

Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65% of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?) Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair. My question to all the sceptics is: Where's the shed? HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.

So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.

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If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?

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Originally Posted by UK_

Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference. Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.

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Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?

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Interesting comment, a lot of individuals see it as a far fetched idea that even some day 60 - 70 year old men may have full heads of hair, but it does happen, and therefore if it is physically possible to achieve - in this case then we need to look at the obstacles, overcome them and re-create from the bottom-up what we lost, which is exactly the purpose of 'regenerative' medicine.

The concept of regenerative medicine (as we all know) has attracted a large degree of controversy, and what I am about to say may seem far fetched but do consider it, if in nature certain animals can lose a limb and grow it back within a few days, then it is technically feasible (as we are viewing its occurrence in nature) we just need to find out how it is done and apply it to humans.

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.

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Aderans focuses on transplanting stem cells from the back of the scalp to balding areas, they have several protocols, Follica keep their cards close to their chest but I believe they are working in the same direction as Histogen by using types of 'gene therapy' to induce follicular neogenesis. Trichoscience seems similar to Intercytex, they may either be working with DP cells or Stem Cells.

Still, Histogen have clearly set a new standard with a 2 year follow-up and no hair loss in any of the patients that were apart of that first 80% circle; I believe Aderans helped 50% maintain new follicles after 1 year and their best protocol worked well (in this sense "noticeable hair gains) in 70% of patients which again lags behind Histogens achievements.

There is a lot of speculation that the histogen product won't work as well for people that have gotten transplants becuase transplants may cause damage or destroy surrounding follicles in the recipient area, I'm not sure if this is the case but if so, do you think Histogen's product would be less effective? And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient?

In other words is Histogen's HSC dependant on reawakening dormant follicles or is it actually creating brand new follicles is what I'm wondering if you have the answer to. This is very important for people considering hair transplants at this point, especially me with a MPB pattern but with diffuse thinning across the top of the scalp, if your product works by reawakening follicles in their original positions then it could potentially give me my natural head of hair again as I had when I was a kid if it's only creating new ones, it makes no difference and I can go and get a transplant.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by KeepHoping

And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient? Thanks

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That's a good point, you're possibly damaging the still existing stem cells/follicles in the recipient area and also creating scar tissue in the donor area, but the HSC could also be used to stimulate new follicles in the rear of the scalp and have them transplanted to frontal areas. However, the statement of 'creating new hair follicles' is a controversial one; referring to the work by Follica for instance, they stated that even in a scalp that appears literally shining bald, the hair is still present but it is microscopic.

So in that context, another way of looking at how the HSC is working, is not that it is creating new follicles but it is actually kicking those microscopic scalp hairs back into action, which also ties in well with the high degree of "control" the HSC imputes as stated by Dr Ziering, in other words; perhaps the reason he didnt see hair sprouting from the forehead etc is because those stem cells are just not present there. Now you have to question, what is in store for an individual who may have lost those miniaturised stem cells through constant transplants, I hope after Phase II we will gain answers to such questions.

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. I´m looking forward to the 4 weeks update and thank you for sharing this with the community.

I have one more question:
If HSC only stimulates the existing hairfollicles (not creates new follicles) to grow new hair, I assume that you can even build a natural Hairline with HSC because (for example) if u inject the HSC on the forehead, there would be no terminal hairgrowth.

I hope you understand what i mean :)

Dr Ziering i have another question.

You said something about 25 hairs per 0.1cc injection. I am not familiar how i can set this in relation to anything else.

Could you perhaps give an example in what relation we can put this. I really dont know under what circumstances 0.1cc are much and under what circumstances 0.1cc is almost nothing.

And does this mean that you got 25 hairs at an areal of 2mm times 2mm? If so, this does mean you got your natural hairdensity or am i wrong.

And another question, do you see some significanc in hair appearance like the new hair looks somehow more youthful and healthy when compared to donor area.

Maybe those are stupid questions but they help me to understand the relations here.

Also iam impressed that Histogen is going for the full frontal right now 50+ injections Holy Crap. And also wow four weeks, i didnt really expect anything from Histogen by lets say end of 2011 the earliest.

Thanks for your patience

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Originally Posted by Dr. Craig Ziering

The scientists at Histogen believe that the new hairs seen at 1 year are a result of stimulating stem cells in the scalp and in existing normal and miniaturizing follicles to grow new hairs.

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I'm a little confused: Why would HSC cause "existing normal follicles" to be growing "new hair"? Aren't normal follicles already growing hair? Do you mean that they're coming out of the telogen phase earlier than they normally would?

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Originally Posted by Dr. Craig Ziering

Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect was seen within 2mm of the injection site.

The HSC works by stimulating stem cells in the dermal papilla of the hair follicle to grow new hairs. It also seems that stem cells in the scalp can be stimulated to grow into new hair follicles. This has been shown to be possible in the mouse model using the components that are part of HSC and so Histogen's trial really substantiates in patients with male pattern baldness what has been shown to be possible in mice for the past few years.

Doc Z

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Wow this is great information Dr Ziering, thank you kindly for sharing it with us all, we're very lucky to have you on this forum answering our questions. It is very pleasing to note that there was a further increase in growth at 12 months even after the 5 month drop-off, it seems to me that the HSC seems to be working well in-line with the natural growth/resting phases of the hair cycle itself.

Dr. Ziering,

I'm not asking for a definitive answer if you don't know but what I was asking was whether or not having a transplant will effect HSC's ability to work because the transplanted hair may damage follicles underneith the surface of the skin or even destroy follicles that were there to make room for the follicles being transplanted. I think many people are worried about getting a transplant at this point because although histogen would be able to make the transplanted hair thicker it may not be able to restore a person to his/her natural density because of damage of dormant follicles.

Thank you so much for being active in the forum and helping those suffering with hairloss, I think I speak for many of us when i say it is greatly appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Craig Ziering

Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.
Doc Z

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Dr Ziering
How do these exploratory case studies fit into the phased trial studies that will commence in a few months ? Is it an early start of the trials or to test a range of protocols that will be used in the trials
cheers

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection.

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Uh, no. You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications. That is something which has to be established through testing.

Dr. Zering I have a question regarding how HSC will ultimately be distributed
if and when it is released. Will you set up clinics under the banner of Histogen or will it be administered by independent doctors who are trained in its application.

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

Uh, no. You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications. That is something which has to be established through testing.

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Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials. Why didn't you answer my question on my last reply?

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials

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"We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet." Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.

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Please try to follow along. Move your lips while you read if it helps.

What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime. That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

Please try to follow along. Move your lips while you read if it helps.

What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime. That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."

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HAHAHA exactly. Avoid my question. Go copy and paste more of my comments if that makes you feel better. I said it once and ill say it again, move your lips while you read it as well. WE STILL DONT KNOW SHIT UNTIL THE TRIALS ARE DONE. Hopefully using caps will help you.

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

"We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet." Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."

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That's my point lame. You are only just assuming shit as well. That's why i sarcastically said if you use one injection, you can use it again if it grew in the first place but did you take the time to read what i wrote after?? I clearly stated, It's obvious we don't know shit at this point. So why don't we stop assuming and let the trials finish. What were you expecting from this interview? We already had the results from the pre-trials. 4 Months later you were expecting to hear breaking news on WHAT?? ha. I don't feel like arguing back and forth over this shit. Someone else clearly told you before i even said anything. Blowmeup wrote "I’m pretty sure that was all covered in this interview" and he gave you the link. Now if you never followed the past Histogen interviews, then i understand why you might be disappointed. Other than that, i don't understand what you're crying about. Histogen had nothing new to post. TRIALS JUST STARTING.

We ask that all users of BTT forums act in a respectful and civil manner when posting their questions, concerns and opinions. This is a place to learn from each other, share ideas and information and to communicate with experts in the field, not a place to voice unfounded personal attacks.

Thank you for your cooperation on this matter.

I apologize

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You are only just assuming shit as well.

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Here's a handy reference guide:

The statement "I believe, without evidence, that X is true" is an assumption.

The statement "You cannot know X to be true without evidence" is not an assumption.

Come on guys, just drop it... we sound like idiots arguing over things that really cannot be argued on at this point. Take it to pm if you need closure.


Doc Z, thank you very much for answering all of the questions. We are all EXTREMELY excited about the development of HSC. To my understanding, HSC "resets the clock" back to the beginning. When I was younger, I had much lighter and curlier hair than what I've had for most of my life (which is now dark and straight). From listening to multiple interviews, I wonder if my hair would first take on the blonde curly type I had as a child?

I hope that Dr Z will answer my questions :(

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.

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Originally Posted by Kamille

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.

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Hi,

I think some of the following links might be of use to you in answering your questions regarding HSC, (particularly the first one in which Spencer directly asks Gail Naughton about treatments for women).

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles...wth-interview/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1349

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1824

Thank you for the links!