Do Looks matter

[yeahyeahyeah]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3917414/ns/dateline_nbc/t/face-value/



By Keith Morrison
NBC News
updated 1/13/2004 10:02:44 AM ET

Anybody who watches reality TV knows that when it comes to landing a date with a beautiful woman, the "Average Joe" doesn't stand much of a chance against a handsome hunk. But does the preference for physical attractiveness go deeper than just romance? Even when looks shouldn't count -- for instance, at a bank or the doctor -- are beautiful people treated better than everyone else? With our hidden cameras watching, Dateline set up some tests to find out.

Everybody knows how much importance we attach to beauty, maybe too much sometimes. But have you ever wondered how different life might be if you were just a little better looking?
Anthony Bernard and Allison Meiersonne are models. Good looks help them make a living. Both of them know they are lucky -- it's what they were born with. But we wondered if their genetic advantage in the beauty department could be helping them in ways they never imagined?
For example, would a stranger come to their aid before assisting an average-looking person? Might they be receiving better service from repair people? Do people trust them more, just because they're good looking?

“A person's physical attractiveness -- the look that they're basically born with -- impacts every individual literally from birth to death,” says Dr. Gordon Patzer, dean of the College of Business Administration at Roosevelt University. He's spent 30 years studying and writing about physical attractiveness. “People are valued more who are higher in physical attractiveness. As distasteful at that might be, that's the reality.”
Valued more? We wondered and decided to find a group of average, nice looking individuals and super, highly attractive people to test this attractiveness phenomenon. We looked for people with similar traits: the same race, no discernible accents, similar age groups. That way the focus would be exclusively on attractiveness.

So we hired models Anthony and Allison, and asked two NBC employees, Loren and another Anthony, to hit the streets, a bank, an auto shop, and even ride the bus, all the time wearing hidden cameras to see just how much looks matter.

First, we gave our foursome folders filled with papers and had them drop the contents on a New York City street. Would anyone stop to help?
When model Allison drops her file, there seems to be a sudden change in the weather. Is it raining men? A man even uses his cane to stop the pages from flying away.

“It was just amazing how people would flock to me to clean it up,” says Allison. “I have dropped my purse and wallet and people always help me pick it up. But I never really thought about if somebody else dropped their wallet, maybe they wouldn't help them. It just seems strange to me.”
NBC staffer Loren is about to be that someone else. She drops the papers and people step by, rather than stop. About a dozen people pass by before, finally, a woman offers help.

But that's nothing compared to our other NBC colleague, Anthony. When he drops the folder, the sidewalk literally clears. Even as he spreads out the papers he's supposedly collecting, people just walk on by.
“I thought, hey I’m dressed in a shirt and a tie,” says Anthony. “I looked pretty professional, so maybe someone may stop and help me out. And people just kept stepping over.”

“I felt embarrassed,” says Loren. “You know wait a second, I think I’m somewhat attractive. Why didn’t anyone help me?”
Model Anthony wouldn't know how that feels. He drops the folder and immediately an entire family stops to help. We wondered if this was just random chance, or is something else going on? We asked Dr. Patzer about our findings.

“That was a classic example of everything we find in the scholarly research that we do,” says Dr. Patzer. “Those of higher physical attractiveness are automatically or immediately assisted, provided help.”
And, as we saw with the family helping Anthony, it's not just about appealing to the opposite sex. While our research was not scientific, Dr. Patzer says more controlled studies do show people go out of their way to help attractive people of the same and opposite sex because they want to be liked and accepted by these good looking people.

We watched for this willingness to help when our test subjects stood on the street for five minutes seeming hopelessly lost, not asking anybody for assistance, just waiting to see if any kind soul would notice and stop.
Our NBC volunteers had no luck, but our super-attractive models were a different story. Allison had lots of helpers. A man even rolled down his car window to offer assistance. And model Anthony? He’ll never be lost.
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“I would hold my map and I’d be looking at the map and looking around and

I’d make eye contact with someone and boom, they’d be reeled in,” says Anthony.

“The lady walks past him, comes back, offers a large explanation of the layout of the city, but even does an ultimate trust…and offers the general part of the city in which she lives,” says Dr. Patzer. “So it verifies very well again we trust more those people of higher physical attractiveness.”
Trust? We watched to see what would happen when our subjects ask passersby for change of a dollar. Everyone did pretty well here, but there were differences, especially when it came to trust.
Many people did not stop or respond to NBC’s Anthony. But for model Anthony, not only did more people stop, but they seemed to feel Anthony was safer, more honest. Like foreign tourists who weren’t even sure how much change equals a dollar, so they held out their money and let Anthony take the correct amount.

“We had situations where people were going out of their way to try to do stuff for us that other people didn't get,” he says.
For Allison, even if people couldn't find the change to give her, they would offer helpful suggestions. And she says that people just start conversations with here, something we saw when she and Loren went for a bus ride during rush hour. We wondered if anyone would offer them a seat. While sitting proved not to be an option for either of them that morning, one man, who starts out standing equidistant between Loren and Allison, strikes up a conversation with Allison for the entire bus ride.


Ive always had my suspicions that good looking people are generally happier, and this is why.

[UK_]

No help for the Norwoods then.

Tell you something now, but if that model suddenly went to either NW4567 his life would be turned on its head, no more help in the streets he'd have to get google maps like the rest of us baldies.

:D

[yeahyeahyeah]

No help for the Norwoods then.

Tell you something now, but if that model suddenly went to either NW4567 his life would be turned on its head, no more help in the streets he'd have to get google maps like the rest of us baldies.

:D

****ing depressing man.

Why can't hairloss be a treatable condition. I wouldn't mind it if I could properly treat it without potentially ****ing my endocrine system up.

God has a way of playing sick jokes on men.

[Davey Jones]

****ing depressing man.

Why can't hairloss be a treatable condition. I wouldn't mind it if I could properly treat it without potentially ****ing my endocrine system up.

God has a way of playing sick jokes on men.

Science works crazy fast now-a-days, man. And hey, now that they found the higgs-boson, maybe the best and brightest can quit dicking around and get back to what matters: MPB.

All that aside, there is a lot of nice stuff going on. I'm giving it until December when Histogen releases it's year-end results. If they aren't good or if one of these new chemicals hasn't done something amazing by then, hey, there is always alcoholism.

[25 going on 65]

Yep good-looking people have better lives. And just think, some are born ugly, physically weak/unhealthy, and mentally handicapped.
There isn't a god but that's alright. If there was one he'd obviously be a sick, twisted piece of garbage more deserving of 7 billion middle fingers than a single word of praise.

****ing depressing man.

Why can't hairloss be a treatable condition. I wouldn't mind it if I could properly treat it without potentially ****ing my endocrine system up.


I don't give a shit about my endocrine system if I could only grow back all my hair.
There is one side effect that concerned me about taking fin: gyno. Because it looks bad.
I would give up a kidney to be rid of this problem (hair loss).

PS I'm in a bit of a bad mood right now, nobody should take this post too seriously or be offended by it of they can help it.

[25 going on 65]

...hey, there is always alcoholism.

I can always count on you to lift my spirits.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Science works crazy fast now-a-days, man. And hey, now that they found the higgs-boson, maybe the best and brightest can quit dicking around and get back to what matters: MPB.

All that aside, there is a lot of nice stuff going on. I'm giving it until December when Histogen releases it's year-end results. If they aren't good or if one of these new chemicals hasn't done something amazing by then, hey, there is always alcoholism.

May hit the bottle. **** it. Become another delinquent.

With that said, I do have faith in Histogen.

It does make me wonder though, if I didn't have to worry about hairloss, how much more I would get done. Same goes for others.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Yep good-looking people have better lives. And just think, some are born ugly, physically weak/unhealthy, and mentally handicapped.
There isn't a god but that's alright. If there was one he'd obviously be a sick, twisted piece of garbage more deserving of 7 billion middle fingers than a single word of praise.



I don't give a shit about my endocrine system if I could only grow back all my hair.
There is one side effect that concerned me about taking fin: gyno. Because it looks bad.
I would give up a kidney to be rid of this problem (hair loss).

PS I'm in a bit of a bad mood right now, nobody should take this post too seriously or be offended by it of they can help it.

The problem is, what if say Histogen comes out with something decent, and then you want to get off fin, but your whole endocrine system crashes upon giving it up.

What then?

[25 going on 65]

The problem is, what if say Histogen comes out with something decent, and then you want to get off fin, but your whole endocrine system crashes upon giving it up.

What then?

I have no concerns about that. When I quit fin I will wean off, and if I get persistent sides, I guess I'll say "thanks for the extra 6 years of hair" (guesstimating Histogen's release date) and probably go the route Davey suggests before launching myself in a stolen rocket ship directly into the sun.

But seriously, I understand your concerns, I'm not saying you're going the wrong route. Only you can way the pros and cons for yourself. I just know there's no way in hell I'm living my 20s with everyone noticing my hair loss. For me fin was an easy choice. I've been on it almost 2 years, so if I'm the type to crash hard when I quit, I've already sealed my fate.

Wish me luck, I might need it.

[yeahyeahyeah]

I have no concerns about that. When I quit fin I will wean off, and if I get persistent sides, I guess I'll say "thanks for the extra 6 years of hair" (guesstimating Histogen's release date) and probably go the route Davey suggests before launching myself in a stolen rocket ship directly into the sun.

But seriously, I understand your concerns, I'm not saying you're going the wrong route. Only you can way the pros and cons for yourself. I just know there's no way in hell I'm living my 20s with everyone noticing my hair loss. For me fin was an easy choice. I've been on it almost 2 years, so if I'm the type to crash hard when I quit, I've already sealed my fate.

Wish me luck, I might need it.

My hairloss is incredibly slow, still very thick hair, just a NW2. I just hope it stays this way.

What were your results on fin?

[NotBelievingIt]

People prefer to look at good looking things. That requires some scientific study about people helping people?


They chose a poor city too - one notorious for stuck-uped-ness bent on a 'get ahead' attitude.

[yeahyeahyeah]

People prefer to look at good looking things. That requires some scientific study about people helping people?


They chose a poor city too - one notorious for stuck-uped-ness bent on a 'get ahead' attitude.

Yes, but imagine how much simpler life would be if you didnt even for a moment think about any of this.

Sums it up:


When model Allison drops her file, there seems to be a sudden change in the weather. Is it raining men? A man even uses his cane to stop the pages from flying away.

“It was just amazing how people would flock to me to clean it up,” says Allison. “I have dropped my purse and wallet and people always help me pick it up. But I never really thought about if somebody else dropped their wallet, maybe they wouldn't help them. It just seems strange to me.”


The THING is, whereever she goes in the world, her life will be good.

What do ugly people do, avoid living in cities where people might be ****s? LOL

[ccmethinning]

The THING is, whereever she goes in the world, her life will be good.



Until she hits 30, when her looks start declining, and 40 when they start falling off a cliff.

Attractive women have the hardest (inevitable) fall.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Until she hits 30, when her looks start declining, and 40 when they start falling off a cliff.

Attractive women have the hardest (inevitable) fall.

Not always mate, many turn into MILFs, and unlike young baldies, at least they got to enjoy their 20s, and 30s.

Think about it.

[mpb47]

Until she hits 30, when her looks start declining, and 40 when they start falling off a cliff.

Attractive women have the hardest (inevitable) fall.

That is not always true. There are a couple of older women at work that do not look there age.

One is 48 and the other is about 50. The one that is 48 spends $$$ to stay that way, plus she exercises almost every day. The other one exercises 2x a day but doesn't do the sandpaper treatments or anything else like the other one. I would say both look 10+ years younger than they really are.

women probably spend more $$ on aging treatments than we do on hair stuff.

If you are up late at night watch that infomercial with Cindy Crawford pushing that anti-aging cream. The spokes women is valerie bertinelli.
The whole commercial is people gushing how young Cindy looks. Well Valerie (50's)is close to 10 years older than Cindy(40's) but to me, looks noticeable younger/better.

[UK_]

****ing depressing man.

Why can't hairloss be a treatable condition. I wouldn't mind it if I could properly treat it without potentially ****ing my endocrine system up.

God has a way of playing sick jokes on men.

If God existed... he wouldnt have designed us to have our reproductive organs in a mish mash with our urinary system.

[UK_]

They can augment facial features but not hair lol.

You can just get plastic surgery these days anyway if you're THAT bothered - most people dont care - but hair loss is something different, it takes you from being a normal 25 year old to lookng like a 55 year old loser.:D

...unfortunately... plastic surgery cant help you... nothing can if you get to that stage :D

[25 going on 65]

My hairloss is incredibly slow, still very thick hair, just a NW2. I just hope it stays this way.

What were your results on fin?

Maintenance of existing hair, thickening of hairs that were miniaturizing, and minor regrowth (mostly in the crown area and a little on top of my scalp). I am a NW2 but I'm a diffuse thinner. I never had a problem with "slick bald" areas, it was that I was diffuse thinning all over the top of my head. My hair took on a more "wispy" quality because of the miniaturization and I hated it.
It's gotten significantly better, to the point that I can style my hair to look like a NW1, but it's still a far cry from my teenage hair which I now realize was awesome. I can't wear the same styles I used to and I wouldn't feel comfortable going swimming, or out in strong wind.
Basically I don't live life to the fullest because I don't want anyone noticing that I've lost hair. It sucks. Fin and keto have worked well for me but really I just want my "real" hair back.

[ThinningB420]

Looks matter but if you're living on looks you're going to live an unhappy life because eventually they wain. The people who are happiest are those who accept themselves for who they are and do the same for others.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Looks matter but if you're living on looks you're going to live an unhappy life because eventually they wain. The people who are happiest are those who accept themselves for who they are and do the same for others.

TBH I don't ask for much - all I ask for is that I don't go bald. (without ****ing my body up)

Is that too much to ask God?

Yours,

Yeahyeahyeah

[25 going on 65]

Well part of it is that while looks wane eventually, for most people that doesn't start happening before mid to late 30s unless it's by choice (bad habits, lack of self-care, etc.). For some it doesn't even happen until much later--Johnny Depp is like 50 now.
For those of us who started losing hair in our 20s (or even worse, teens), we HAD to start losing our looks at a time when everyone else is in their physical prime. 25, 20, or 16 is a horrible age to start going through something that you never expected to go through for at least another 10-20 years.

So it's true self-acceptance is a good way to happiness, but it's difficult when you're rushed into that stage years or decades before your peers.

[Davey Jones]

I have a theory (more of a hope) that when hairloss is cured, we're all gonna be better people for it. We'll be less judgmental of other people, 'cause we've been judged so harshly. We're going to really understand that we should accept people no matter what they look like. Understand it in a way that you can only understand if you've been there and come back.

But it probably won't work that way. Actually, I'm sure it won't, because I still see people on here saying stuff like, "It sucks that all women care about is looks! Why won't she give me the time of day just because I'm bald! Hell, I'll probably end up with a fat, ugly girl."

We all deserve this. It just sucks that everyone else deserves it too!

[yeahyeahyeah]

I have a theory (more of a hope) that when hairloss is cured, we're all gonna be better people for it. We'll be less judgmental of other people, 'cause we've been judged so harshly. We're going to really understand that we should accept people no matter what they look like. Understand it in a way that you can only understand if you've been there and come back.

But it probably won't work that way. Actually, I'm sure it won't, because I still see people on here saying stuff like, "It sucks that all women care about is looks! Why won't she give me the time of day just because I'm bald! Hell, I'll probably end up with a fat, ugly girl."

We all deserve this. It just sucks that everyone else deserves it too!

Even they are picky mate.

With that said, as much as we bitch about people not giving us the time and the day. We are just as shallow for discriminating against fat, ugly girls, they need love too. :eek:

Rather, the real problem with hairloss, is that it strips our identity away, I never did once ever see myself as a bald man. Screw that shit.

[ThinningB420]

Well part of it is that while looks wane eventually, for most people that doesn't start happening before mid to late 30s unless it's by choice (bad habits, lack of self-care, etc.). For some it doesn't even happen until much later--Johnny Depp is like 50 now.
For those of us who started losing hair in our 20s (or even worse, teens), we HAD to start losing our looks at a time when everyone else is in their physical prime. 25, 20, or 16 is a horrible age to start going through something that you never expected to go through for at least another 10-20 years.

So it's true self-acceptance is a good way to happiness, but it's difficult when you're rushed into that stage years or decades before your peers.

I agree with what you said. I don't mind balding if I were ten years older. At that age it would seem normal. I don't think my looks are terrible as a result of balding. I think I look abnormal for my age.

[NotBelievingIt]

someone being ugly is well, just ugh.

But a bunch of fat girls would turn hot if they lost weight and toned up.

Take a look at some of the Extreme Makeover: Weight Loss Edition gals.

[25 going on 65]

someone being ugly is well, just ugh.

But a bunch of fat girls would turn hot if they lost weight and toned up.

Take a look at some of the Extreme Makeover: Weight Loss Edition gals.

Here in the USA most people are overweight or obese (or "morbidly obese," "super obese," whatever the categories are). I often see overweight women who I can tell would be very good looking when they get into shape.
I wish it was like that for MPB. "Oh, that guy will look great once he gets around to regrowing his hair." :rolleyes:

[yeahyeahyeah]

someone being ugly is well, just ugh.

But a bunch of fat girls would turn hot if they lost weight and toned up.

Take a look at some of the Extreme Makeover: Weight Loss Edition gals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPDdYT8Tr68&feature=related

[Highlander]

Fat people disgust me.

[NotBelievingIt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPDdYT8Tr68&feature=related

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/david-smith-regains-weight_n_1574170.html


It sad he put it back on

[DepressedByHairLoss]

Here in the USA most people are overweight or obese (or "morbidly obese," "super obese," whatever the categories are). I often see overweight women who I can tell would be very good looking when they get into shape.
I wish it was like that for MPB. "Oh, that guy will look great once he gets around to regrowing his hair." :rolleyes:

Bro, that's what really frustrates me more than anything. Overweight people have a chance to improve their situation and looks by exercising and getting on a healthy diet. But with MPB, there is no solution. That's why I would give anything to be overweight as opposed to suffering from hair loss. At least if a person is overweight, the opportunity is out there to lose a ton of weight. But a person with hair loss is really screwed when it comes to effective options out there. That being said, I will concede the Propecia does help to slow down hair loss (sometimes drastically). But in terms of hair regrowth, the options are downright laughable.

Anyway, you are right about more people being obese or overweight here in the U.S. more than anywhere else in the world. And I really do believe that the pharmaceutical companies and other entities literally make a fortune from providing people with drugs to treat a variety of things. Meanwhile, if these people adopted a healthy diet and exercised regularly, then I believe that they wouldn't even need a lot of these drugs to treat their specific conditions. I even remember Spencer saying that he had some type of infection (or some other kind of ailment) and the doctor wanted to put him on some type of drug for it. Yet Spencer refused to get on this drug and instead changed his diet dramatically and maybe made a few other changes to his lifestyle. As a result, I think he said that he felt 80% better, or that the infection or ailment was 80% removed from his body or something like that, on his radio show. The action that Spencer took actually inspired me to change my own diet and lifestyle recently. I eliminated lots of junk food and started running again. As a result, I think that my hair texture and volume is a lot better as well as my overall health. I really think that in today's society, we have crappy food marketed to us left and right and as a result of bad diets and habits, some people develop various ailments and then have drugs prescribed to them to treat said ailments. Whereas I believe that if people just improved their diets and lifestyles, then their ailments would be gone or the symptoms severely reduced without the need for prescription drugs. Man, I really wish this applied more to hair loss.

[mpb47]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/david-smith-regains-weight_n_1574170.html


It sad he put it back on

If you want it to stay off, you have to do only things that are doable over the long term. Eat less, but don't starve yourself. Only do exercises you like ..that way you will stay with it and not give up.

That poor guy should have asked for help. That is stress eating, been there done that.

[gmonasco]

Bro, that's what really frustrates me more than anything. Overweight people have a chance to improve their situation and looks by exercising and getting on a healthy diet. But with MPB, there is no solution. That's why I would give anything to be overweight as opposed to suffering from hair loss. At least if a person is overweight, the opportunity is out there to lose a ton of weight. But a person with hair loss is really screwed when it comes to effective options out there.

Yes, that's one of the hardest things to accept about MPB: the loss of control. MPB happens through no fault of your own, and there's nothing you can do about it. No amount of hard work, money, dieting, exercise, physical therapy, surgery, medical treatment, good behavior, or anything else will restore the head of hair you once had.

I would bet, though, that some chronically obese people hold the feeling that hair loss sufferers have it easy in comparison to them, because in their minds hair loss sufferers can wear hairpieces, while there's nothing obese people can do to disguise their weight.

[UK_]

**** hair loss.

[25 going on 65]

I agree the lack of control with MPB is maddening. I could be a billionaire and it would make no difference in my options.

However I'm not judgmental of overweight people anymore. There's no way to know what difficulties and tragedies these strangers face every day. Most people in modern society are self-medicating in some form, with food, drugs, alcohol, TV, risky sex etc etc. Food is just the one that makes itself most obvious in someone's appearance.
In the worst of my depression (after noticing hair loss) I was abusing liquor and cannabis for awhile. To the casual observer I probably might have seemed like some selfish degenerate, but actually I was just dying inside and desperate for a quick fix to give me some relief from it

[hellouser]

****ing depressing man.

Why can't hairloss be a treatable condition. I wouldn't mind it if I could properly treat it without potentially ****ing my endocrine system up.

God has a way of playing sick jokes on men.

First thing you need to realize is that theres no such thing as god.

[hellouser]

I think its important to note though..... that all the women we ever slept with, dated, made friends with.... they never gave us the time of day because we had hair.

As much as it sucks ass to be a balding man and still have standards, I really think women are less picky than men. The most attractive girl I know (think Eva Mendes) basically only dates guys with a shaved head or baldies. Its never just the hair, women (and people that are worthwhile in general) are interested in far more than just our head of hair (or lack of).

The other thing is, being bald isnt always a negative.... the top of my head has been thinning for a few years now after my harline has receded, but I've gotten an urge to just shave it all off and see what I'd look like. You guys are forgetting that bald doesnt mean ugly; Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Andre Agassi and a boat load of other guys look BETTER bald than with hair. Two close friends of mine with almost no hair score THE MOST of any of my friends, more so than even some of my attractive looking guy friends. And neither of the two bald/balding friends of mine are anything like the celebrities I mentioned.

Imagine that.... scoring more with the ladies when bald than before with hair?

Like I said, it was never the hair that made us so attractive to the ladies... its much more than that.

[yeahyeahyeah]

I think its important to note though..... that all the women we ever slept with, dated, made friends with.... they never gave us the time of day because we had hair.

As much as it sucks ass to be a balding man and still have standards, I really think women are less picky than men. The most attractive girl I know (think Eva Mendes) basically only dates guys with a shaved head or baldies. Its never just the hair, women (and people that are worthwhile in general) are interested in far more than just our head of hair (or lack of).

The other thing is, being bald isnt always a negative.... the top of my head has been thinning for a few years now after my harline has receded, but I've gotten an urge to just shave it all off and see what I'd look like. You guys are forgetting that bald doesnt mean ugly; Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Andre Agassi and a boat load of other guys look BETTER bald than with hair. Two close friends of mine with almost no hair score THE MOST of any of my friends, more so than even some of my attractive looking guy friends. And neither of the two bald/balding friends of mine are anything like the celebrities I mentioned.

Imagine that.... scoring more with the ladies when bald than before with hair?

Like I said, it was never the hair that made us so attractive to the ladies... its much more than that.

Download an iphone app called baldify.

And you will see for yourself how you look bald.

[NotBelievingIt]

I wouldn't say Willis looks better completely shaven/bald - he just looks different. It helps as it thinned down he kept getting it cut shorter and shorter so the change wasn't a drastic visual shift.

He holds it well. He has a great shape and isn't skinny fat.

[beatinghairloss]

Lifes always worth living. There may not be a god in the context you are used to hearing it from the bible or koran. However I use reason based on the belief that he complexity of the cells in a leaf let alone all the organisms on the planet clearly support an intelligent designer. It’s a belief that uses this really cool analogy and truthfully they refute all religious claims of saviors or prophets. They more or less believe the motions that created earth must have been created by something due to the complexity of earth. They say this, If you found a watch in the middle of a dense forest and I asked you how old it was. You may be able to narrow it down within a decade or so but if I told you it was a million years old you would call me crazy. Why? Because a human had to have created it due to the complexity of it. No animal or natural process could have done it by mere chance. Well the earth’s complexity is far greater than that which really makes you wonder what created us. What that designer is I have no clue, does that designer intervene? I have had no spiritual intervention? Does an intelligent designer exist? I think so.

[NeedHairASAP]

I agree the lack of control with MPB is maddening. I could be a billionaire and it would make no difference in my options.

However I'm not judgmental of overweight people anymore. There's no way to know what difficulties and tragedies these strangers face every day. Most people in modern society are self-medicating in some form, with food, drugs, alcohol, TV, risky sex etc etc. Food is just the one that makes itself most obvious in someone's appearance.
In the worst of my depression (after noticing hair loss) I was abusing liquor and cannabis for awhile. To the casual observer I probably might have seemed like some selfish degenerate, but actually I was just dying inside and desperate for a quick fix to give me some relief from it

I use to crack jokes at EVERYONE, even bald people... then low and behold. Only so many years later, I am much more humble.

[NeedHairASAP]

Lifes always worth living. There may not be a god in the context you are used to hearing it from the bible or koran. However I use reason based on the belief that he complexity of the cells in a leaf let alone all the organisms on the planet clearly support an intelligent designer. It’s a belief that uses this really cool analogy and truthfully they refute all religious claims of saviors or prophets. They more or less believe the motions that created earth must have been created by something due to the complexity of earth. They say this, If you found a watch in the middle of a dense forest and I asked you how old it was. You may be able to narrow it down within a decade or so but if I told you it was a million years old you would call me crazy. Why? Because a human had to have created it due to the complexity of it. No animal or natural process could have done it by mere chance. Well the earth’s complexity is far greater than that which really makes you wonder what created us. What that designer is I have no clue, does that designer intervene? I have had no spiritual intervention? Does an intelligent designer exist? I think so.

spinoza


Einstein liked him

[Highlander]

Lifes always worth living. There may not be a god in the context you are used to hearing it from the bible or koran. However I use reason based on the belief that he complexity of the cells in a leaf let alone all the organisms on the planet clearly support an intelligent designer. It’s a belief that uses this really cool analogy and truthfully they refute all religious claims of saviors or prophets. They more or less believe the motions that created earth must have been created by something due to the complexity of earth. They say this, If you found a watch in the middle of a dense forest and I asked you how old it was. You may be able to narrow it down within a decade or so but if I told you it was a million years old you would call me crazy. Why? Because a human had to have created it due to the complexity of it. No animal or natural process could have done it by mere chance. Well the earth’s complexity is far greater than that which really makes you wonder what created us. What that designer is I have no clue, does that designer intervene? I have had no spiritual intervention? Does an intelligent designer exist? I think so.

Spinoza's God. I like this way of thinking, actually.

Anyway, my question is then that if a creator is assumed to exist, why should we assume he isn't a Personal Creator, and why shouldn't we assume he cares about us enough to provide some form of revelation.

[Benzzro]

You guys should think about suicide, your whinging sickens me.

[beatinghairloss]

Spinoza's God. I like this way of thinking, actually.

Anyway, my question is then that if a creator is assumed to exist, why should we assume he isn't a Personal Creator, and why shouldn't we assume he cares about us enough to provide some form of revelation.

I agree if that creator is powerful enough to create the universe I can only imagine it must have intimate feeling invested in each of our lives. This is why at times I pray but I don't go to church. Furthermore, I find most religions to be counter productive as they rely on mythical miracles to convince people of a creators existence rather then pure reason.

[Highlander]

I agree if that creator is powerful enough to create the universe I can only imagine it must have intimate feeling invested in each of our lives. This is why at times I pray but I don't go to church. Furthermore, I find most religions to be counter productive as they rely on mythical miracles to convince people of a creators existence rather then pure reason.

That's why I believe in a Natural Law in terms of the Roman Catholic understanding of it. I think if a religion is relying on "ta dah" miracles and because-the-book-said-so circular logic, then its merits would be questionable.

Roman Catholics get a massively bad rap by so many people, but in all my studies, they must be by far the most sane out their in terms of their beliefs. And I say this based on a wide range of things.

[ppxrare]

I was born a Muslim and like anyone growing up came to a point where I questioned my beliefs. I'm at a point now where I can't be 100 percent sure there is a God or there isn't but so many stuff in this world show us how clueless us humans can be about certain things. How scientists believe they know everything until a small thing comes up and shows how incompetent they are.

That is why I find the atheists kind of stupid, how can you be certain 100 percent that there is no God with all the things around you which point to a certain creator. In my opinion I think most probably there is a God, Very difficult for me to imagine that all this is a coincidence. That is why I am now trying to play it safe, do what I can in terms of what my religion asks me to do and the things I can't or am not willing to give up, I will hope God forgives me.

To be honest,the things the Koran or other religious books asks us to do are always for our benefit and you have to keep in mind that many things that people think they hate in the Koran are misinterpreted wrong or just fabricated. That's why when I get to a point in my life where I do think I'm 100 percent sure of God's existence I think the most logical of the religions is the Koran even though all of them are from God. Of course that is my opinion only.

[FlightTL]

Perhaps, women will not tell us, but perhaps, they really want a guy with full hair!

[BGP]

That is why I find the atheists kind of stupid, how can you be certain 100 percent that there is no God with all the things around you which point to a certain creator.

I don't think many atheists would make any claim with 100% certainty. All we say is that since there is no evidence that god exists, we cannot hold that as a valid belief. And 'evidence' is considered to be something that can withstand the scrutiny of the scientific process.

[hellouser]

That is why I find the atheists kind of stupid, how can you be certain 100 percent that there is no God with all the things around you which point to a certain creator.

The same criticism should be made of those that are 100 percent certain that there IS a god.

[ppxrare]

Well I somewhat agree with you hellouser, I myself am not 100 percent convinced yet there is a God but I can understand why a person would be 100 percent convinced that there is because if there is an almighty and powerful God, don't you think its within his power to test our faith and whats the point of faith if you can scientifically prove that there is a God?

I just find it pointless for this universe to exist without a creator or a goal. It can't all be random and just coincidences.

[25 going on 65]

Any god who created pattern hair loss is a disgusting piece of shit.

[hellouser]

Well I somewhat agree with you hellouser, I myself am not 100 percent convinced yet there is a God but I can understand why a person would be 100 percent convinced that there is because if there is an almighty and powerful God, don't you think its within his power to test our faith and whats the point of faith if you can scientifically prove that there is a God?

Why would our faith need to be tested? You do realize that faith and religion only depend on which part of the world your born in? If you were born in Texas, you'd probably be a Christian. If you were born in India, you'd probably be Hindu. If you were born in Egypt, you'd probably be Muslim. If in Israel, Jewish and if in Norway (my favourite) probably Atheist. Favourite being Norway because the country is socially way ahead of any other nation on the planet, looks like Atheism isnt such an evil force after all... or actual, no force at all since it doesnt have any agenda/rules/beliefs or special places to compare clothing on sundays.

I just find it pointless for this universe to exist without a creator or a goal. It can't all be random and just coincidences.

Why not? Whats it matter? Once we're going to be 6 feet under its not going to make a lick of a difference. I'm not worried about dying because I'm an atheist and when I die I won't even know it, why? Because I'll be dead. Creator or no creator, religion has been responsible for some of, if not most of the worlds most disgusting crimes. How anyone can advocate religion is beyond me.

[hellouser]

Any god who created pattern hair loss is a disgusting piece of shit.

Yeah, the lord works in mysterious ways.... lol. Theres nothing mysterious about being an asshole! To quote Jim Jefferies:

Religious people will forgive god for ****ing anything. In their mind he does good things. Rainbows. Children’s laughter. Shit like that, right? But when he does bad things like hurricanes, aids, cancer, child molestation, then we just go ‘ah well… god works in mysterious ways’. What type of an excuse is that? What is mysterious about acting like a ****ing asshole? That is like the least mysterious activity since the dawn of time! If I ever date a religious girl she’s gonna come home and I’m gonna be raping her mum, right, and she’s gonna look at me and go ‘What are you doing!?’ and I’m gonna go ‘I’m mysterious! I've always been mysterious!'.

[25 going on 65]

Awful but exactly accurate. If any of us here had unlimited power, none of us would be so screwed up in the head that we would inflict disease, hunger, torture, rape, murder on so many people who were only in the wrong place at the wrong time. But apparently we are not even supposed to hold a "perfect being" to as high of a standard as we hold some slob on the internet!

[ppxrare]

Well helouser, that was a question troubling me also. Let's assume Islam was the correct religion, if I were born to a christian family or an atheist family then is it my shitty luck that I wasn't born to the correct religion.

So I asked this question to many educated Muslims and I got the same answer. Nobody knows how God (if he exists) will judge us, All the religions are made from god and of course it would be better if one were to be in the last or correct religion but as long as a person is good and tries his best to maintain the rules God has given him/her then he/she should be fine.

God is perfect, we aren't. Religion wars were started by us. If this was an exam, whats the point of it if you know all the answers? Whats the point of life as a test if it was all perfect?

At the end in my opinion, there is no way to scientifically prove that God does or doesn't exist. You will always find a counter-argument to anything. I myself will try to play it safe, I will try and enjoy my life without harming anyone even though it might be against my religion ( smoking weed, drinking, having sex) but also do the things that I am asked of like praying, fasting, giving money to the poor etc...

I do appreciate that all the things which religion (in my case the Quran) forbids is truly for our best interest.

[25 going on 65]

If God created man and man created religious wars, then god created religious wars. Also rape, murder, etc
Clearly he wouldn't be perfect if he existed, in fact he would be worse than basically every human being in history. He would make Hitler look like a decent guy by comparison.

[hellouser]

Well helouser, that was a question troubling me also. Let's assume Islam was the correct religion, if I were born to a christian family or an atheist family then is it my shitty luck that I wasn't born to the correct religion.

So I asked this question to many educated Muslims and I got the same answer. Nobody knows how God (if he exists) will judge us, All the religions are made from god and of course it would be better if one were to be in the last or correct religion but as long as a person is good and tries his best to maintain the rules God has given him/her then he/she should be fine.

God is perfect, we aren't. Religion wars were started by us. If this was an exam, whats the point of it if you know all the answers? Whats the point of life as a test if it was all perfect?

At the end in my opinion, there is no way to scientifically prove that God does or doesn't exist. You will always find a counter-argument to anything. I myself will try to play it safe, I will try and enjoy my life without harming anyone even though it might be against my religion ( smoking weed, drinking, having sex) but also do the things that I am asked of like praying, fasting, giving money to the poor etc...

I do appreciate that all the things which religion (in my case the Quran) forbids is truly for our best interest.

You do realize that all the things that are forbidden in Islam are man made rules and are purely subjective. Even if god were to exist, the assumption that there would be judgement is another fabrication.

Theres no scientific method to disprove god exists because there is no evidence *at all* (this is an indisputable fact) of a god in the first place. Scripture doesnt count either as they are written by man. Fact is, god was created in mans image.

[Highlander]

Well helouser, that was a question troubling me also. Let's assume Islam was the correct religion, if I were born to a christian family or an atheist family then is it my shitty luck that I wasn't born to the correct religion.

So I asked this question to many educated Muslims and I got the same answer. Nobody knows how God (if he exists) will judge us, All the religions are made from god and of course it would be better if one were to be in the last or correct religion but as long as a person is good and tries his best to maintain the rules God has given him/her then he/she should be fine.

God is perfect, we aren't. Religion wars were started by us. If this was an exam, whats the point of it if you know all the answers? Whats the point of life as a test if it was all perfect?

At the end in my opinion, there is no way to scientifically prove that God does or doesn't exist. You will always find a counter-argument to anything. I myself will try to play it safe, I will try and enjoy my life without harming anyone even though it might be against my religion ( smoking weed, drinking, having sex) but also do the things that I am asked of like praying, fasting, giving money to the poor etc...

I do appreciate that all the things which religion (in my case the Quran) forbids is truly for our best interest.

**** Islam.

[Highlander]

blah blah blah

I have almost given up debating about religion on the Internet, but this kind of warrants a response. Even if it's going to be half-arsed as it's nearly 1am and I'm super tired.

God didn't "create" war, famine, etc. If a world is going to exist wherein people are to be judged for their actions then there needs to be a way for people to act out in both good and bad ways. The fire that warms you can to burn you, the water that sustains you can drown you. It's a matter of free will.

God has given us humans the gift of free will. You can choose to be a moral agent in this world, or you can choose not to. If you have no ability to be bad, then you are forever going to be good. Which would mean you would not have the ability to act according to any will of your own, merely you'd be living in a world governed by determinism.

It's easy to blame God for the famine and ills of the world, but I don't think anybody would doubt that countries like the USA could single-handedly solve the third world problems. So why is it God's fault that we as humans are failing to act on these problems which WE'VE created and WE CAN solve?

It's also worth nothing that the Vatican gives more aid and money to Africa than any other country in the world. That's rather embarassing if you ask me. But perhaps not as embarassing as the marxist hippies blogging away on their Macbooks sipping Starbucks, vehemently attacking the Church for its "evil work" - as they'd have it - in Africa.

Finally, I'd like to hear a serious rebuttal to this next point as I feel it's highly valid. Einstein once said something to the effect of "If the world were to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ then I have no doubt that all the social problems of the world would be solved". I ask you, is this not true? Imagine a world where we all abstained before marriage? STD's would no longer become a relevant problem. Imagine we truly helped out neighbours out and sought to apply the Golden Rule in all aspects of life? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

[gmonasco]

Finally, I'd like to hear a serious rebuttal to this next point as I feel it's highly valid. Einstein once said something to the effect of "If the world were to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ then I have no doubt that all the social problems of the world would be solved". I ask you, is this not true?

It's certainly not true that Einstein said that. He never said anything remotely like that -- in fact, he said just the opposite:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary."

[25 going on 65]

Edit: I decided to delete my post because I don't want to debate here about a manmade idea like God as if it was a real thing outside our heads.

[ulanude]

Edit: I decided to delete my post because I don't want to debate here about a manmade idea like God as if it was a real thing outside our heads.
actually baldness/hair play quite a role in some religions :)

[Highlander]

It's certainly not true that Einstein said that. He never said anything remotely like that -- in fact, he said just the opposite:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary."

"If one purges(...)Christianity as Jesus taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity." - From Einstein's book The World as I See It (Philosophical Library, New York, 1949) pp. 111-112

Einstein was a deist, and I'll concede arguably a pantheist. He also had a great respect for many world religions even though he himself found the idea of a Personal God foreign and childish.

[Highlander]

Edit: I decided to delete my post because I don't want to debate here about a manmade idea like God as if it was a real thing outside our heads.

ITT: Butthurt cleaners and petrol station workers who think they're intelligent because they "like science" and are anti-theists.

You know you're suffering critical mass levels of butthurt when you dismiss the most important question man has ever asked as child's play. Look up any intelligent person and add religion or God after their name. Each of them will have very complex, well-formed ideas on religion and God, regardless of if they're theists or not.

It's the pseudo-intellectual new atheists that try to dismiss it entirely as if the question is not one worth asking. I find that pathetic and intellectually dishonest.


You're not as smart as you think you are, I assure you. What a sad world we would live in if we all thought like you.

[ppxrare]

You do realize that all the things that are forbidden in Islam are man made rules and are purely subjective. Even if god were to exist, the assumption that there would be judgement is another fabrication.

Theres no scientific method to disprove god exists because there is no evidence *at all* (this is an indisputable fact) of a god in the first place. Scripture doesnt count either as they are written by man. Fact is, god was created in mans image.


They are man made rules if you assume god doesn't exist, if he did exist then when you think about the rules they all make sense and are one way or another for our benefit.

Just because we don't have human evidence for God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Scientific evidence is something created by humans, again if God created us to test us don't you think its within his powers to have us never be able to 100 percent prove that he exists? because what is the point if we can prove he can exists, its like knowing the answers to an exam beforehand.

Some things in this world are enough evidence for some people that God exists, if you are very anal about proving he doesn't exist then you will stay that way because you are looking at the universe in a biased way.



@ Highlander, a bit offensive don't you think? Is it difficult for you to think that maybe just maybe the Bible has been played with and changed several times and that actually Islam is the next and last religion after Christianity?

Anyways I accept all religions except the retarded ones like Scientology, or Mormonism, and I'm going to stop arguing about religion now because I really don't give a shit lol

[25 going on 65]

ITT: Butthurt cleaners and petrol station workers who think they're intelligent because they "like science" and are anti-theists.

You know you're suffering critical mass levels of butthurt when you dismiss the most important question man has ever asked as child's play. Look up any intelligent person and add religion or God after their name. Each of them will have very complex, well-formed ideas on religion and God, regardless of if they're theists or not.

It's the pseudo-intellectual new atheists that try to dismiss it entirely as if the question is not one worth asking. I find that pathetic and intellectually dishonest.


You're not as smart as you think you are, I assure you. What a sad world we would live in if we all thought like you.

I wasn't offended. I didn't see the use in treating a self-contradictory idea as if we didn't make it from our imaginations. If I told you unicorns were real, would you want to debate with me on BTT about what properties they would have, or whether they would be jerks?
I don't find myself or anyone "intelligent," "smart" or "intellectual." These strike me as adjectives we apply when trying to convince ourselves/others that a person or idea has validity, or lacks it.
I don't clean or work at a gas station, but I don't look down on those who do.
The most important questions ever asked have nothing to do with mythical beings like God or unicorns. They have to do with real things.
This would go down smoother if you didn't pretend to think that one of many old tales handed down through generations was a "real thing." You don't believe in Madusa or leprechauns because you have no reason to. Just apply the same reasoning to this thing "god" we conjured up. I'm not saying it definitely doesn't exist, just that there is no reason to think it does, any more than the many other ideas we or our ancestors imagined.
You probably don't like me, but for what it's worth, I appreciate your avatar.

[25 going on 65]

I thought of a couple things I wanted to add. The reply of mine that I deleted was not mean spirited or insulting, if anyone wondered. The other thing is that I would not want everyone to think like me, or to think like any one person. However I do wish this one idea, god, would be taken less seriously by most. We would be better off.