The Big 3

[Spex]

TheBig 3

The big 3 to beat DHT, THE CAUSE OF HAIRLOSS!

- Propecia ( Finasteride ), Minoxidil and Nizoral

Here is the thing you need to make sure you understand when it comes to MPB:

The main known factor that causes hairloss is DHT. To form DHT your body's 5a-reductase enzyme converts free roaming testosterone DHT inside the hair cell follicle. The DHT then binds to the hair cell receptor and causes it to atrophy or shrink. Eventually your hair follicle stops producing hair and you lose that follicle.

There are two types of the 5ar enzyme; Type I and Type II. Type II 5ar seems to be the main culprit in MPB as the type II enzyme is present in the hair follicles. Finasteride is a specific inhibitor of Type II 5ar inhibitor that reduces DHT produced by the type II 5ar by 85%-90% and reduces the overall DHT blood serum levels by 65%.

As you can see Finasteride (PROPECIA ) is extremely useful as a treatment for MPB as it directly attacks the problem. Nizoral shampoo is thought to help "dull" the androgen receptors in the scalp which the DHT binds to. Together they provide a synergetic effect.

Minoxidil is a hair stimulant. It is the only FDA proven hair stimulant on the market. However stimulating hair and protecting hair from further damage are two separate actions

Minoxidil will artificially augment your hair while you use the compound but it does NOT have any know effect on 5ar or the androgen receptors in the scalp.

The best way to attack MPB is to:

1. Stop further damage to your hair via DHT. You can accomplish this best by using Finasteride to inhibit the 5ar enzyme and Nizoral to "dull" the androgen receptors.

2. **If** further thickening/regrowth is needed after the hair damaging DHT androgen is reduced then minoxidil can be used to further augment your existing hairs and perhaps even stimulant some dormant hair follicles to resume growing.

Use all these 3 products together -

1. Minoxidil 2 x a day - once in the am and once in the pm
2. Finesteride (propecia/proscar) 1mg per day
3. Nizoral 2 x a weeks (no more) - will dry your scalp out!

Propecia is the best proven way to prevent further loss. If for some reason your not a responder theres Dutasteride/Avodart but i recommend you start off with Propecia/proscar and see how you repond.

FYI -

Dutasteride and finasteride (PROPECIA) are both 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) inhibitors. Both treatments work by inhibiting 5AR, the enzyme responsible for converting testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is the primary androgen in the prostate. It is a primary factor in the development and progression of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) and other prostate diseases and is also a major cause of hair loss.

.5mg - 2.5mg of Dutasteride provides better results in hair maintenance/regrowth as opposed to Finasteride

However, the benefit likely comes from its higher inhibition of type II 5ar not its suppression of type I 5ar. Merck tested a specific type I 5ar inhibitor called "MK386" in a human trial and found it had no effect on balding.

Jumping on the Dutasteride bandwagon before the Finasteride bandwagon is not a good idea. For most men Finasteride is enough to halt and even reverse MPB... In the off-chance your body becomes tolerant of Finasteride (over the years) you always have Dutasteride to fall back on...

Side-effects on Dutasteride may be more common, any such sides would last longer as the half-life of Dutasteride is much longer then Finasteride, and unlike type II 5ar type I 5ar *is* present in brain tissue. Finally, keep in mind that DHT is not an evil androgen that just causes hairloss. Various bodily functions benefit from DHT. Finasteride inhibits 65% overall DHT levels leaving 35% for your body to use (most of that 35% is from the type I 5ar that isnt a big factor in hairloss). Dutasteride inhibits 90% or more overall DHT levels leaving 10% or less for your body...

Basically, use Finasteride **first** and only resort to Dutasteride if you must - This is just my opinion

[JimmyG]

Great summary, thanks Spex!

[Chris81]

Hey, nice info. I have actually just started the big 3. I started with propecia, with worked ok. Then after a while, like 1 year i started rogaine. Now i have used Rogaine for like 1 month or so. and i noticed i started to lose a lot of hair after aprox 1 week after i started the treatment.

I have read on different sites that this is normal, to shed hair at the start of the treatment.
But i have been losing hair heavy for 1 month now and getting scared to be honest. Do you have any experiance of this? Shall i abort and just continue with propecia? I am afraid that the hair wont come back and i just gonna keep losing as long as i use rogaine.. Please i would be great full for your answer

Best Regards Chris

[Chris81]

Anyone that experienced the same issue?

/Chris

[Spex]

Very common to shed when you introduce a new med to your reg' especially minox.

Helpful info on shedding i found on an old topic.

Shedding:
Written by Dr. Kevin McElwee

No doubt if you're a hair loss sufferer, you've had to deal with the most unpleasant part of it: Shedding. Find out why it happens, what it *really* is, how long it will last, and what you can do about it...

Whether it happened before, during, or after you started treatment can play a big role in how devastating a shed is for you, but no matter what, one thing is always for certain... its no fun. Shedding is one of the biggest complaints and the level of concern heightens when its seen *after* starting a treatment like Propecia or Rogaine.

Shedding is Normal

Believe it or not, shedding after starting a treatment is fairly common. In fact, more often than not, our users report increased loss a few weeks to a few months after starting Propecia or Rogaine (or both!). But what a shock it can be to those who don't expect it. They finally take that dive into the daily commitment of fighting their hair loss. They're finally ready to do something about it, and as hopeless as things may seem, they put all their trust in the clinical data. They have a few weeks of feeling a little better about things, hoping for the best, knowing they're doing all they can ... and then something goes wrong. They actually start to *lose* hair. At least that's how it looks. Instead of going forward, they're going backwards. The more level headed shedders decide to wait it out a few days, only to see it continue... and continue... and continue. The rest panic, or just throw in the towel entirely. They decide they are not "responders" to the treatment, that the treatment doesn't work, or quite simply that God has forsaken them. Fortunately, they're wrong on all three counts...

What exactly is Shedding?

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/attachments/sheddiag.gif


In all cases, treatments or no treatments, shedding is not actually "losing hair". This is one of the most common misconceptions in the world of hair loss. Shedding is in fact just the transition of follicles from growth phase to resting phase. They don't fall out and die, never to return. They in fact "go to sleep", to return several months later. Hair follicles work in cycles as part of their normal processes. Even the person not losing his or her hair goes through the same cycles. The hair will grow for awhile, and it will rest for awhile. In the case of someone *not* using any treatments, but experiencing Androgenetic Alopecia (Male or Female pattern baldness), shedding is typically the continued cyclical process, combined with miniaturization. What does this mean? It means each time those hairs go dormant and come back, they come back weaker, thinner, and less pigmented, ultimately resulting in the perception of less hair and more scalp skin showing. There are theories out there as to why hair seems to go "all at once" for those losing hair, but they are still just theories. The most common one is the theory that those with androgenetic alopecia see more of a synchronization of dormancy. Meaning - more hairs go dormant at the same time, ejecting the existing hair and shutting down temporarily. Either way, the moral of the story is the same: Shedding is not losing hair. Its dormancy. And it is up to you as to whether those hairs cycle back in thicker and stronger, or thinner and weaker. That's where using a DHT inhibiting, or growth stimulating treatment comes into play.

Shedding *because* of my Treatment?!?

Its possible, and as mentioned above, rather common. Surprised? Its actually the most common reason why people think hair loss treatments don't work! If you start a new treatment like Rogaine or Propecia, you probably will shed, but the amount of hair shed varies from person to person. It has long been suspected that there is an increase in shedding in the first 3 months or so. Recently, some studies using a digital phototrichogram (Trichoscan, Marburg, Germany) proved that there was indeed a quantifiable increase in shedding and a corresponding loss of hair density in the first 3 months of minoxidil use. However, by the 6 month stage the subjects were shown to have regrown the lost hair and had increased hair density compared to that recorded at the start of treatment. By 12 months after starting minoxidil use their hair density was much improved and the diameter of the hair fibers was thicker than at the start of treatment and as compared to controls who did not receive treatment. This small study proves what has long been suspected and frequently discussed on hair loss forums, that there is an initial shed phase when first starting minoxidil use.

How long will it last?

Shedding is temporary. If the individual continues their treatment consistently, despite the seeming despair and loss of hope, shedding will end and the lost hair should be replaced.

Why does it happen?


Although we do not know exactly why the shedding occurs, the most likely explanation is due to how the hair follicle "organ" operates. Hair follicles are relatively inflexible in their anagen, "hair producing" state. In response to additional stimuli the growing hairs may be able to increase their growth rate or increase the diameter of the hair fiber produced a little, but it is not possible for a hair follicle to undergo big changes in size while producing hair fiber. What ends up happening, is that when that follicle gets hit with a growth stimulant like Minoxidil, it is given a very strong signal to change size (expand) and increase activity. The rule of the follicle is that it must then stop, and start over. The existing hair is ejected, the follicle goes into dormancy, and begins to restructure its processes to produce a thicker, stronger hair that can produce a bigger (thicker) hair fiber.

Shedding is a sign that the Treatment is Working

Howso??? When Rogaine is applied to stimulate hair follicles, the follicles must regress, shed the old fiber, rearrange themselves into a bigger hair follicle, and start making a new, improved fiber. This would inevitably lead to a temporary shed phase. You're seeing your hairs respond. Its unfortunate that the first sign of new hair growth is seeming hair LOSS, but that's the way it works, quite often.

There is a belief among some dermatologists that an initial shed phase when first starting to use a treatment for hair loss is inevitable regardless of the treatment used. Because of the hair follicle's inflexibility in changing the nature of hair growth mid stream, for any drug to promote hair growth it must involve hair follicles entering telogen to rearrange themselves into a larger follicle under the influence of the drug. However, certainly, the shed phase with minoxidil use can be very apparent in some people.

But "BOB" on xxxx.com told me that the shedding will NEVER STOP!

There are a few who claim that using treatments like Propecia and Minoxidil can cause a persistent shedding that lasts longer than the first three months. While there is no hard research evidence to support these claims, it is always possible that an individual may have an adverse reaction to a drug. We are each unique because of our different genetic make up and the different environments in which we live. This means that there are somewhat different responses to the same drug when used by different people. It is almost inevitable that a very few people will have a bad reaction to a drug. It may be that for a few minoxidil does more harm than good and follicle growth cycles are adversely affected. If this is the case, stopping use of the drug should allow the body to recover. However, it is most likely that many of the claims for persistent shedding actually come from those who are experiencing the expected shedding in the first 3 months, have not been consistent with their dosages, or have been continually adding or taking away from their treatment regimen.

But *I* think I have Telogen Effluvium!


Many hair loss sufferers with traditional male or female pattern baldness want to believe they have Telogen Effluvium (TE), because it provides a glimmer of hope that the whole ordeal is just temporary. Unfortunately, TE by definition is a condition that occurs in response to serious traumatic shock to the system as a whole. It is not a something that will happen without any abnormalities going on in your life. Things like sudden shock, chronic debilitating stress, extreme malnutrition, certain medications, and chronic serious illness are the most common causes. There is no way to know for sure how long shedding will last with telogen effluvium. Increased shedding occurs in response to a trigger factor. If exposure to the trigger is brief and there are no other contributing factors then the shedding may last for around 3 months and then recover so that 6 months later the hair is pretty much back to normal. However, if the trigger factor hangs around, like chronic stress or illness, then the shedding may persist. The hair follicles can get into a habit of short, truncated growth cycles, producing short hair that falls out after a few months. This results in a high shed rate – although the hair loss on the scalp need not progress much.

In Conclusion - Don't Count Hairs

In terms of understanding hair loss, the nature of shed hair and the rate of shedding is not very important, although it may be disturbing to see. Shedding is natural, everyone sheds hair daily whether affected by hair loss or not. You can shed up to 100 scalp hairs a day without having any scalp hair loss. A few people may shed more than this but still not develop baldness. To understand the development of hair loss the main factor to consider is the rate of hair growth and replacement, not so much the rate of shedding. Some people have a high rate of shedding but also a high rate of hair growth. The result is no net loss of hair on the scalp. Some people have a low rate of hair shedding and a low hair regrowth rate. The result is similarly no alopecia development. The problem comes when someone sheds hair at a faster rate than it is replaced. This is the scenario where baldness develops. You can have a normal or even a low shed rate and still develop baldness. If the hair is being shed faster than it regrows then alopecia will develop. So the amount hair shed each day/week/month is a poor diagnostic indicator of hair loss. To define alopecia you must look at what is left on the scalp. That is where it counts.

[Chris81]

Damn this was very usful reading THANKS, feel better already now that i understand.
Cant believe this is not explained on the prescription of the drug.

Just got one thought out of this..
you must look at what is left on the scalp. That is where it counts..
yes but since my shedding started my vetrex of thin hair has increased alot. But i guess this is only is the first fase, the new hairs will be larger so the nex shedding bot be noticied on the scalp as much. Right? :)


And the really qurius question.. if a person stop the treatment after shedding alot, will lost the hair grow back but equally thin or will the lost hair that "shedded" be gone for ever??


Regards /Chris

[Robert Haber, MD]

Dear Chris:

It’s actually quite common to experience some shedding beginning several weeks after starting Rogaine. The shedding generally lasts for a few weeks, then subsides, followed by the gradual regrowth of the lost hair. While distressful, its believed that this occurs as the Rogaine takes over the growth cycle, and can actually be a good sign that the medication is being used properly.

My recommendation is to continue using both Propecia and Rogaine together, as they are likely to stabilize your hair loss, and possibly even regrow some hair. Even if you choose to undergo hair transplantation at some point in the future, continuing these medications will give you the best long term cosmetic improvement.

Sincerely,

[Chris81]

Ok, thanks for the info.

Just out of curiusity, if i stop the treamtment, (i wont though) after shedding alot. Will the hiar grow back anyways but as the same thin shape that it was from the start or wont they grow back at all?

Realy curius about this. Thanks for your answers and for taking your time.

Kind Regards Chris

[Robert Haber, MD]

Chris:

If you stop a medical treatment, you will end up where you would have been if you had never used that treatment at all. You will lose all Rogaine benefits within a few months, while it will take one or two years to lose Propecia benefits.

If you stop your Rogaine now, after shedding but before regrowth, you should expect to regrow the shed hairs over the next few months, and return to where you were before you started it.

Sincerely,

[Chris81]

Ok, thank you very much for straighten things out for me. This has been very usful, realy.

That was what i thought, for a moment i thought that if i stop the treatment the shedded hair will be lost forever. Thanks now i will sleep better :)

Regards Chris

[Chris81]

Another question, First off, i am stil shedding alot. Even at the places where i have not used. And that is my question acually.

Why am i also shedding thick hair at places minox never comes contact with?

Does the minox have som type of "overall" effect on your hair growht or what? Thanks

Regards Chris

[Steve]

Hi , I have used rogaine for 2.5 weeks and notice sevre shedding around my hairlines . In truth I took a situation which was not that bad and made it worse . I could kick myself .

However I have stoped using rogaine for 2 weeks now and have started Finepecia [ finesteride ] and I notced some thinning of my hair in the hairline region .

My question is will hair shed ever regrow back once stopping using rogaine . I am highly stressed about this and would appreciate any information on the question .

Thanks a million guys

Steve

[Speegs]

This may seem like a silly question, but I went on a camping trip and was unable to wash my hair for almost three days, when I showered i shed like mad on to my hands, every swath through my hair seemed to produce ten hairs, most unminiaturized, I roughly shed like 180 hairs in the showr, is it safe to assume that was on account of having not washed my hair for several days and that i had accumulated several days of shedding in my shower?

I normally shed as low as 60 and as high as 100 hairs in the shower, yes i'm annal enough to stop and count them pretty regularly.

[Spex]

Steve - shedding on meds initially is very common - ride it out bro!

See topic below:

Helpful info on shedding i found on an old topic.

Shedding:
Written by Dr. Kevin McElwee & HLT

No doubt if you're a hair loss sufferer, you've had to deal with the most unpleasant part of it: Shedding. Find out why it happens, what it *really* is, how long it will last, and what you can do about it...

Whether it happened before, during, or after you started treatment can play a big role in how devastating a shed is for you, but no matter what, one thing is always for certain... its no fun. Shedding is one of the biggest complaints and the level of concern heightens when its seen *after* starting a treatment like Propecia or Rogaine.

Shedding is Normal

Believe it or not, shedding after starting a treatment is fairly common. In fact, more often than not, our users report increased loss a few weeks to a few months after starting Propecia or Rogaine (or both!). But what a shock it can be to those who don't expect it. They finally take that dive into the daily commitment of fighting their hair loss. They're finally ready to do something about it, and as hopeless as things may seem, they put all their trust in the clinical data. They have a few weeks of feeling a little better about things, hoping for the best, knowing they're doing all they can ... and then something goes wrong. They actually start to *lose* hair. At least that's how it looks. Instead of going forward, they're going backwards. The more level headed shedders decide to wait it out a few days, only to see it continue... and continue... and continue. The rest panic, or just throw in the towel entirely. They decide they are not "responders" to the treatment, that the treatment doesn't work, or quite simply that God has forsaken them. Fortunately, they're wrong on all three counts...

What exactly is Shedding?

http://www.************.com/forums/attachments/sheddiag.gif


In all cases, treatments or no treatments, shedding is not actually "losing hair". This is one of the most common misconceptions in the world of hair loss. Shedding is in fact just the transition of follicles from growth phase to resting phase. They don't fall out and die, never to return. They in fact "go to sleep", to return several months later. Hair follicles work in cycles as part of their normal processes. Even the person not losing his or her hair goes through the same cycles. The hair will grow for awhile, and it will rest for awhile. In the case of someone *not* using any treatments, but experiencing Androgenetic Alopecia (Male or Female pattern baldness), shedding is typically the continued cyclical process, combined with miniaturization. What does this mean? It means each time those hairs go dormant and come back, they come back weaker, thinner, and less pigmented, ultimately resulting in the perception of less hair and more scalp skin showing. There are theories out there as to why hair seems to go "all at once" for those losing hair, but they are still just theories. The most common one is the theory that those with androgenetic alopecia see more of a synchronization of dormancy. Meaning - more hairs go dormant at the same time, ejecting the existing hair and shutting down temporarily. Either way, the moral of the story is the same: Shedding is not losing hair. Its dormancy. And it is up to you as to whether those hairs cycle back in thicker and stronger, or thinner and weaker. That's where using a DHT inhibiting, or growth stimulating treatment comes into play.

Shedding *because* of my Treatment?!?

Its possible, and as mentioned above, rather common. Surprised? Its actually the most common reason why people think hair loss treatments don't work! If you start a new treatment like Rogaine or Propecia, you probably will shed, but the amount of hair shed varies from person to person. It has long been suspected that there is an increase in shedding in the first 3 months or so. Recently, some studies using a digital phototrichogram (Trichoscan, Marburg, Germany) proved that there was indeed a quantifiable increase in shedding and a corresponding loss of hair density in the first 3 months of minoxidil use. However, by the 6 month stage the subjects were shown to have regrown the lost hair and had increased hair density compared to that recorded at the start of treatment. By 12 months after starting minoxidil use their hair density was much improved and the diameter of the hair fibers was thicker than at the start of treatment and as compared to controls who did not receive treatment. This small study proves what has long been suspected and frequently discussed on hair loss forums, that there is an initial shed phase when first starting minoxidil use.

How long will it last?

Shedding is temporary. If the individual continues their treatment consistently, despite the seeming despair and loss of hope, shedding will end and the lost hair should be replaced.

Why does it happen?


Although we do not know exactly why the shedding occurs, the most likely explanation is due to how the hair follicle "organ" operates. Hair follicles are relatively inflexible in their anagen, "hair producing" state. In response to additional stimuli the growing hairs may be able to increase their growth rate or increase the diameter of the hair fiber produced a little, but it is not possible for a hair follicle to undergo big changes in size while producing hair fiber. What ends up happening, is that when that follicle gets hit with a growth stimulant like Minoxidil, it is given a very strong signal to change size (expand) and increase activity. The rule of the follicle is that it must then stop, and start over. The existing hair is ejected, the follicle goes into dormancy, and begins to restructure its processes to produce a thicker, stronger hair that can produce a bigger (thicker) hair fiber.

Shedding is a sign that the Treatment is Working

Howso??? When Rogaine is applied to stimulate hair follicles, the follicles must regress, shed the old fiber, rearrange themselves into a bigger hair follicle, and start making a new, improved fiber. This would inevitably lead to a temporary shed phase. You're seeing your hairs respond. Its unfortunate that the first sign of new hair growth is seeming hair LOSS, but that's the way it works, quite often.

There is a belief among some dermatologists that an initial shed phase when first starting to use a treatment for hair loss is inevitable regardless of the treatment used. Because of the hair follicle's inflexibility in changing the nature of hair growth mid stream, for any drug to promote hair growth it must involve hair follicles entering telogen to rearrange themselves into a larger follicle under the influence of the drug. However, certainly, the shed phase with minoxidil use can be very apparent in some people.

But "BOB" on xxxx.com told me that the shedding will NEVER STOP!

There are a few who claim that using treatments like Propecia and Minoxidil can cause a persistent shedding that lasts longer than the first three months. While there is no hard research evidence to support these claims, it is always possible that an individual may have an adverse reaction to a drug. We are each unique because of our different genetic make up and the different environments in which we live. This means that there are somewhat different responses to the same drug when used by different people. It is almost inevitable that a very few people will have a bad reaction to a drug. It may be that for a few minoxidil does more harm than good and follicle growth cycles are adversely affected. If this is the case, stopping use of the drug should allow the body to recover. However, it is most likely that many of the claims for persistent shedding actually come from those who are experiencing the expected shedding in the first 3 months, have not been consistent with their dosages, or have been continually adding or taking away from their treatment regimen.

But *I* think I have Telogen Effluvium!


Many hair loss sufferers with traditional male or female pattern baldness want to believe they have Telogen Effluvium (TE), because it provides a glimmer of hope that the whole ordeal is just temporary. Unfortunately, TE by definition is a condition that occurs in response to serious traumatic shock to the system as a whole. It is not a something that will happen without any abnormalities going on in your life. Things like sudden shock, chronic debilitating stress, extreme malnutrition, certain medications, and chronic serious illness are the most common causes. There is no way to know for sure how long shedding will last with telogen effluvium. Increased shedding occurs in response to a trigger factor. If exposure to the trigger is brief and there are no other contributing factors then the shedding may last for around 3 months and then recover so that 6 months later the hair is pretty much back to normal. However, if the trigger factor hangs around, like chronic stress or illness, then the shedding may persist. The hair follicles can get into a habit of short, truncated growth cycles, producing short hair that falls out after a few months. This results in a high shed rate – although the hair loss on the scalp need not progress much.

In Conclusion - Don't Count Hairs

In terms of understanding hair loss, the nature of shed hair and the rate of shedding is not very important, although it may be disturbing to see. Shedding is natural, everyone sheds hair daily whether affected by hair loss or not. You can shed up to 100 scalp hairs a day without having any scalp hair loss. A few people may shed more than this but still not develop baldness. To understand the development of hair loss the main factor to consider is the rate of hair growth and replacement, not so much the rate of shedding. Some people have a high rate of shedding but also a high rate of hair growth. The result is no net loss of hair on the scalp. Some people have a low rate of hair shedding and a low hair regrowth rate. The result is similarly no alopecia development. The problem comes when someone sheds hair at a faster rate than it is replaced. This is the scenario where baldness develops. You can have a normal or even a low shed rate and still develop baldness. If the hair is being shed faster than it regrows then alopecia will develop. So the amount hair shed each day/week/month is a poor diagnostic indicator of hair loss. To define alopecia you must look at what is left on the scalp. That is where it counts.

[brando1]

Hi and thanks for sharing..

I have been using 5% Rogaine for about 7 months 2X Day and started using Proscar (Prescription) about 4-5 months ago (5MG Cut Into 4) 1.25MG X2 in the morning and night because thats when my estro levels are high. I dont have any side effects now like I did when I first started.

My hair is thining in the vortex area to the crown but I still have hair so I am not completely bald yet.
I havent seen any results yet but then again I shave my head weekly with clippers using no guard so I wouldnt tell if I have been shedding. After one week from shaving I can see how my hair fills in which is the same, thin.

My question..
Is it better to use rogaine with a shave head (Not Shave With A Razor) so it would assorb better or should I just let my hair grow? I have been shaving my head for about 2-3 years. I also sometimes use 2% Nizoral but I find using head and shoulders with scalp moisturizer daily helps my scalp from itching.

Any feedback would be highly appreciated and thanks in advance.
:)

[Robert Haber, MD]

Brando1:

Firstly, finasteride is intended to be a once a day medication. After a few days of use, your blood levels reach "steady state" so there is no benefit to taking it twice daily, and certainly more of a hassle.

Using minoxidil on a shaved scalp will guarantee proper application and distribution, but it won't change absorption or effectiveness. Some people do make the mistake of using the foam as a "Mousse" and mainly apply it to the hair, where it will of course do nothing.

Finally, remember that the main reason to use both minoxidil and finasteride is to hold on to the hair you have. Only a lucky few actually grow more hair on these medications. So even if you don't see any change, you are most likely getting benefit, and should continue using the products.

Good luck!

Sincerely,

[brando1]

So what are my options to grow some of that hair back? Do you think Duta is more effective?
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Rogaine used to re-grow hair?

[Robert Haber, MD]

Brando1:

Both Rogaine and Propecia CAN regrow hair, they just don't always do so, however, they much more reliably slow down or stop loss, which is just as important.

Some people believe dutasteride (Avodart) is superior, but there is no data to prove that, and more potential side effects, so I don't recommend dutasteride to my patients. I've been on Propecia myself for over a decade, and have not had much hair loss during that time.

Sincerely,

[PMCR1966]

Hi Doctor,

I very much appreciate the suggestions that you give on these forums! I have a question that maybe you might have one for.
I have been taking Propecia for hair loss for about one year, and for one month have been using Rogaine. Recently it has come to my attention that this might complicate my Hachimotos thyroid disease. I am considering quitting Propecia and just using Rogaine.
My questions are: does finesteride effect thyroid levels and what would be the effect of quitting Propecia and using just Rogaine.

Thank you again,

Paul

[jnd3344]

isnt Propecia 3 times a week (mon, wed, fri) enough?

[macrylinda]

Damn this was very usful reading THANKS, feel better already now that i understand.
Cant believe this is not explained on the prescription of the drug.

Just got one thought out of this..
you must look at what is left on the scalp. That is where it counts..
yes but since my shedding started my vetrex of thin hair has increased alot. But i guess this is only is the first fase, the new hairs will be larger so the nex shedding bot be noticied on the scalp as much. Right?


And the really qurius question.. if a person stop the treatment after shedding alot, will lost the hair grow back but equally thin or will the lost hair that "shedded" be gone for ever??

___________________
watch free movies online (http://moviesonlinefree.biz/)

[ProAntix]

Hi Guys,

I read this forum over two years ago and since then have been following the "The Big 3" daily routine. Very happy with my results (image attached). Definitely stops thinning out and IMO slows down a receding hair-line too. Give it a go!

Regards,
Mark.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9162/nowandthen.jpg

[crowningglory]

This is a really helpful read!

I don't think Dutasteride can "replace" Finasteride when it comes to results. Min + Fin + Niz really make wonders. And yes, don't overuse Nizoral as it can cause more damage than harm.

[andycanon]

Very interesting read..
i went on to read more in dept after..

I am only doing one of there 3 things and that the shampoo part..
With all the reading i did, it seems that by stopping the formation of DHT we are in a way turning into women, you nipples seems to get bigger , but in the other way it looks like the more DHT we have the bigger your prostate seems to get..
It almost looks like that everyone has to find the rite balance in all this..
Its so complicated to figure out.. as i had looked at the natural way oF stopping DHT, but as we do this then the estrogen will eventually take over making men more sensitive etc.. as i was looking into saw palmetto.. but had some breast tenderness review as a side effect, but then in the other hand propecia seems to have a no libido effect in some cases..
I just dont understand when we are say in out teens.. and are probably horney lest say.. hehe like dogs some times as i know now with girls i go out with i am far more chilled out than when i was younger i was all over them :) but why if we had all this testosterone, why didn't our heir fall back then?? and it is now??
a part of me is thinking, if i was able to get that sexual energy back that i had when i was younger would your hair come back too or cells be active? not that i have any problems in that way, but there is a difference in general.

Just trying to understand the science about it all.. as many people talk about DHT, but when one actually goes into in dept reading its almost like a mile long road full of other potential causes.

[blakes33]

Chris:

If you stop a medical treatment, you will end up where you would have been if you had never used that treatment at all. You will lose all Rogaine benefits within a few months, while it will take one or two years to lose Propecia benefits.

If you stop your Rogaine now, after shedding but before regrowth, you should expect to regrow the shed hairs over the next few months, and return to where you were before you started it.

Sincerely,

Thanks for that post about what happens after stopping. I am wondering for the typical man who has been taking propecia 10 + years, how soon after stopping would you expect hairloss to begin/resume?

If it truly takes 6 months or more, would it make sense to take the drug for 6 months on and then 6 months off?

[DepressedByHairLoss]

Holy crap, those results demonstrated by ProAntix are absolutely amazing. I have never seen the so-called Big 3 produce results even close to that! Wow, if those 3 treatment consistently produced those kinds of results, I'd be on them non-stop! I hope that ProAntix still frequents these message boards because I'd love to ask him about his regimen, because those results are downright astounding! I'd like to know everything about his hair regrowth regimen because I'd give anything for those kind of results. Specifically: how often did he use minoxidil and finasteride and nizoral? And what else he did to achieve that remarkable regrowth. Hell, those results are even better than most hair transplants!

[Spex]

GREAT stuff! Well done for getting on appropriate treatments and catching it:cool:

You clearly responded very well and really chuffed for you well done!!!!!!:cool:

Best
Spex

[clandestine]

Seriously need an alternative to propecia that does not cause sexual sides..

[blakes33]

Yeah, but what about 2 posts up.... 6 months on, then 3 or 6 months off?

[Xandroxuser]

I have been a Xandrox 15 and fin user for 7 years and, since the closure of Dr Lee am seeking a replacement for the Xandrox.

Mostly, I am seeking the sort of sensible advice that this thread provides in abundance. Spex, in particular (together with Dr Haber) talks the sort of language I associate with professionalism and the Dr Lee approach - realistic and evidence-based, insofar as we have the evidence.

I an allergic to PG - which was what led me to Dr Lee after several years on Regaine 2%, the 5%.

I intend to add Nizoral 1% and see how I get on with that.

My big problem is whether to go with one of the easily available Xandrox type 15% - minoxidil and azeliac acid - solutions - easily available on the internet, that is. Mostly the reports of these products on internet forums are not good - but to be fair many talk of what might be temporary shedding, they experience with these products. However, I have yet to read a glowing report from people looking for a Xandrox 15 replacement. Also, the way some of these companies seem to scam their products spooks me.

Or should I go with Rogaine foam? Again, there are scary postings of more or less continuous sheds with the foam, which lead many to go back to the liquid - no good for me, because of the PG.

Your advice would be most appreciated.

I would be very keen to privately email Dr Spex. Or, indeed, mention by name internet alternative 15%'s, on this thread, if that was appropriate.

[DepressedByHairLoss]

Seriously need an alternative to propecia that does not cause sexual sides..

And we definitely need a better hair regrowth stimulant than minoxidil, which doesn't cause any type of meaningful regrowth on most people. That guy ProAntix just had totally amazing results that I've frankly never ever seen before.

[Xandroxuser]

I am taking the liberty of posting this on this - more relevant - thread. It would be good to get the views of experts such as Spex and Dr Haber, as well as the views of experienced users of the relevant products. It raises issue of importance to many of us.
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[QUOTE=Tracy C;46575]Higher dose [of minoxidil] does not equate to more effectiveness. Higher dose does equate to increasing the probability of experiencing negative sides effects.

Here in the U.S., the highest dose you can get through legitimate channels and without a prescription is 5%. There is probably a very good reason for that. It is most likely to achieve a more acceptable side effect profile.


Tracy, I have followed many of your postings, as a newby to the site - and am broadly in agreement with much of your - in the main - mainstream advice. However, I wondered how you deal with the the fact that so many 'swear by' Dr Lee's products (the defunct - since March - regrowth.com). I believe Spex posted and said many of his patients say the same thing about the value of Dr Lee's products, incidentally.

I, for one, am running around like a headless chicken looking for advice on what to use to substitute for his Xandrox 15. Many of us used this for up to 10 years, having been advised to move to it from Xandrox 5 by Dr Lee - given our particular circumstances.

As you may know, the FDA closed his operation in March. I developed an allergy to PG which was what led me to Dr Lee, in the first place - after using over the counter Regaine. I do take fin, I may start Nizoral 1%.

Irrationally, or not, to switch to 5% Regaine foam, twice a day - from Xandrox 5 and Xandrox 15 (probably the 'mainstream' advice?) seems more scary than to go with something like Dualgen - 5 and 15 (minoxidil max). With the minox, there is 5% azeliac acid - not proven, of course, in all these products.

Those anti-Lee often explain his apparent 'success' by saying it was the first rate minoxidil that he used that was most responsible. Also, for someone like me, his professional and 'realistic' approach eventually led me to trust both him and his products.

I would be very glad of your view. I'm assuming you know, too, that minoxidil.solutions which purported to take over his operation around July - ceased trading in December. There are mixed views on the efficacy of their product; their legitimacy, and their operation, in general. Either way, it is irrelevant now because they have gone.

Your advice would be most appreciated. Although, to be honest, I think I picked up from other postings of yours that you were not very knowledgable about Dr Lee - there were certain inaccuracies in the general thread. I found this rather surprising when so many in the MPB community rated him and his products so highly.

It would be good to hear from you.

[Tracy C]

I think I picked up from other postings of yours that you were not very knowledgable about Dr Lee...

I know of Dr. Lee through folks who have been harmed from using his formulas. What you read on the web is not "the grand scheme of things" so to speak. You are only getting a small part of the whole picture.

There is a reason "providers" such as you mention have been shut down - and will continue to be shut down in the future. It is not a conspiracy. The FDA has a job to do. Part of that job is to shut down operations that wantonly sell products that can cause harm.

[Xandroxuser]

I know of Dr. Lee through folks who have been harmed from using his formulas. What you read on the web is not "the grand scheme of things" so to speak. You are only getting a small part of the whole picture.

There is a reason "providers" such as you mention have been shut down - and will continue to be shut down in the future. It is not a conspiracy. The FDA has a job to do. Part of that job is to shut down operations that wantonly sell products that can cause harm.


I appreciate this is a rather delicate matter. Do we know why he was shut down? Do we have any evidence for the reasons? 'Wantonly sell products that can cause harm' is quite a strong statement.

[Tracy C]

It is a strong statement. Unfortunately there are operations who are doing just that, especially in the hair loss market. I do not know exactly why the "provider" you mention was shut down. Since I know of people who have been harmed using those formulas, I suspect it is likely because people have been harmed.

[Xandroxuser]

It is a strong statement. Unfortunately there are operations who are doing just that, especially in the hair loss market. I do not know exactly why the "provider" you mention was shut down. Since I know of people who have been harmed using those formulas, I suspect it is likely because people have been harmed.

I'm not sure how best to continue this constructively - but I think it is important that we do. I have no doubt that there are people who have been 'harmed' by most medical treatments. Cerainly, there are many who claim to have been harmed by 'The Big Three'. I would have thought that there is a lot of evidence that they have been.

Is it the 'formula' aspect of the Dr Lee preparations that you are particularly suspicious of? I hope that you are willing to continue this thread and that others will chip in.

[Xandroxuser]

Tracy. My apologies to you, to other posters - and, possibly, to Spex.It is difficult keeping track of multiple threads about the 'same' topic.
I now see that it may have been Dr Charles who I quoted on Dr Lee - not Spex.
However, I can't find if Dr Charles followed up on what he said; or where it might be, if he did; or why he didn't follow up on it, if he didn't. Can anyone help? - Especially Dr Charles.


See: on another thread:
Dr. Glenn Charles
IAHRS Recommended Hair Transplant Surgeon
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 818

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There are some other on line pharmacies that are doing 10-15% Minoxidil solutions. They probably do not have the same ingredient combinations that you have been using but may be close. I will work on getting the names for everyone. I also have had many patients over the years that swear by Dr. Lees solutions.

__________________
Dr. Glenn Charles
Member, International Alliance of Hair Restoration Surgeons
View my IAHRS Profile

[Tracy C]

Is it the 'formula' aspect of the Dr Lee preparations that you are particularly suspicious of?

Absolutely. I do not feel it is productive or helpful to discuss this any further. The fact that these "providers" have been shut down - and will continue to be shut down, should be enough to show that these products should be avoided. There are proven products that have been FDA approved or cleared for the treatment of hereditary hair loss. Use those.

[Xandroxuser]

Absolutely. I do not feel it is productive or helpful to discuss this any further. The fact that these "providers" have been shut down - and will continue to be shut down, should be enough to show that these products should be avoided. There are proven products that have been FDA approved or cleared for the treatment of hereditary hair loss. Use those.

Tracy. Point taken and thank you for your advice. But I do hope others - both 'experts' and 'users' - will continue with the direction this thread is taking.

[ulanude]

Absolutely. I do not feel it is productive or helpful to discuss this any further. The fact that these "providers" have been shut down - and will continue to be shut down, should be enough to show that these products should be avoided. There are proven products that have been FDA approved or cleared for the treatment of hereditary hair loss. Use those.
Agreed on minoxidil. Not agreed on finasteride. Just the fact that it is FDA proven does not make it a viable or effective treatment to me. The lobby of those companies is just extremely powerful promoting a product that can cause serious side-effects (documented in scientific publications and starting to be banned in some countries). Caveat emptor ("Let the Buyer beware").