Histogen Update - Spencer Kobren Speaks With Dr. Craig L. Ziering

[tbtadmin]

P8e770e6bfab5a975c81b8427a2b7909dZlF5RVREYGFy

[fontanajul]

What an excellent interview! Thank you so much for giving me some hope. I have a few questions that maybe someone could address? It might be a little early to ask these things, but I figured I'd ask anyway. So basically, I'm curious about...

1. Has there been an estimated cost for HSC injections?
2. Is there any way to see photo results from the first trial?

Thanks in advance,
Max

[RichardDawkins]

Nice interview, i really expected the worst things but man, i got the strange feeling i know which Guys from the forum here are ment to be that little bit of pushy :-)

[PayDay]

Great interview Spencer! Let me be the first to agree with Dr. Ziering that if it weren’t for you none of this information would be available to us. It’s because of these interviews and everything else you give us that everyone is talking about this stuff all over the internet an maybe some of the doctors are working even harder to solve this thing. You are the man! I'm stoked about this!

[blowmeup]

Thanks for the interview Spencer, it was very informative. I’m a little disappointed to hear that Dr. Ziring does not seem sure about the timeline, but I’m very happy that everything appears to be moving in a positive direction. Will Dr. Ziering be answering questions on the forum? I wanted to know if having a hair transplant now will interfere with having Histogen injections in the future?

[gmonasco]

I found the interview disappointingly vague. Lots of happy talk, but precious little detail about what, if anything, they've found that Histogen can actually do in the trials conducted so far.

[blowmeup]

I’m pretty sure that was all covered in this interview.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1560

[RichardDawkins]

I have to agree...... Didnt you listen to the interview :confused:

[reset]

Thanks for the interview Spencer. It`s great we`re able to hear directly from the guys in the field. I don`t know if any one at Histogen is taking taking questions now, but I`ve heard about `Pan-Asian` trials but aside from Singapore I haven`t heard of any other countries in Asia taking part in the trials. Which, if any, other countries are going to take part in the trials? Thanks.

[gmonasco]

Didnt you listen to the interview

Yes, I did. Didn't you read my post? I could hardly have said I found it lacking in detail if I hadn't listened to it.

As I said, there was lots of happy noise about what Histogen might do, but precious little solid info about what it has actually proved to do so far.

[RichardDawkins]

But right now there isnt much else to say they did test if HSC could be dangerous, and it isnt.

They saw hair still be there after two years and now they gonna for different approches after 6 weeks etc which is exactly according to plan.

I dont think that it was all happy talk, it was a realistic observation from someone at the source.

The most important thing is, its safe AND the hair stays, who knows what can be achieved with higher injections here and there. At least from the data it could hairtransplants make more sufficient with less grafts to plant.

Also the idea about Histogen in the first round to stop hairloss and grow back special parts and then go for Acell orientated hair transplant is pretty damn good.

[gmonasco]

But right now there isnt much else to say

My point exactly. No substantive information is not exactly something to be optimistic about.

it was a realistic observation from someone at the source

But someone who also has a vested interest in making things seem as positive as possible.

The most important thing is, its safe AND the hair stays

Neither of those factors has been established yet.

First of all, early stage clinical trials seek to determine whether a particular treatment manifests any immediately obvious deleterious effects serious enough to warrant discontinuation of the trials. If if doesn't, then the trials can proceed, but that milestone is very far from demonstrating that a treatment is "safe" in an overall sense. Safety is something which can only be determined with much wider trials, a much larger user base, and the passage of time (as numerous recalls of previously approved drugs have demonstrated).

Second, any trial of a treatment for regrowing hair would realistically have run at least two years (and possibly longer) just to determine whether the new hairs produced by the treatment survive an anagen/telogen cycle. Even then, you don't know for sure -- a newly produced hair might survive the first cycle, but that's no guarantee it won't, say, (akin to miniaturization) grow progressively weaker and fail to survive subsequent cycles. What the long term benefits or effects will be are something that can only be determined in the long term, and obviously none of us here is going to be able to wait a couple of lifetimes to verrify how things pan out.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

What an excellent interview! Thank you so much for giving me some hope. I have a few questions that maybe someone could address? It might be a little early to ask these things, but I figured I'd ask anyway. So basically, I'm curious about...

1. Has there been an estimated cost for HSC injections?
2. Is there any way to see photo results from the first trial?

Thanks in advance,
Max
1. No definite price yet but the plan would be to make it affordable to the masses!

2. Close up macroscopic pictures can be seen at histogeninc.com

[CVAZBAR]

My point exactly. No substantive information is not exactly something to be optimistic about.



But someone who also has a vested interest in making things seem as positive as possible.



Neither of those factors has been established yet.

First of all, early stage clinical trials seek to determine whether a particular treatment manifests any immediately obvious deleterious effects serious enough to warrant discontinuation of the trials. If if doesn't, then the trials can proceed, but that milestone is very far from demonstrating that a treatment is "safe" in an overall sense. Safety is something which can only be determined with much wider trials, a much larger user base, and the passage of time (as numerous recalls of previously approved drugs have demonstrated).

Second, any trial of a treatment for regrowing hair would realistically have run at least two years (and possibly longer) just to determine whether the new hairs produced by the treatment survive an anagen/telogen cycle. Even then, you don't know for sure -- a newly produced hair might survive the first cycle, but that's no guarantee it won't, say, (akin to miniaturization) grow progressively weaker and fail to survive subsequent cycles. What the long term benefits or effects will be are something that can only be determined in the long term, and obviously none of us here is going to be able to wait a couple of lifetimes to verrify how things pan out.

Well if you already knew all the answers, why are you disappointed? I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks for the interview Spencer, it was very informative. I’m a little disappointed to hear that Dr. Ziring does not seem sure about the timeline, but I’m very happy that everything appears to be moving in a positive direction. Will Dr. Ziering be answering questions on the forum? I wanted to know if having a hair transplant now will interfere with having Histogen injections in the future?
No , having a transplant now will not prevent you from receiving HSC injections in the future.The great thing is that HSC works on the recipient area and has nothing to do with the donor at this time . This should give new hope to all those that have poor or no donor hair available .
Good luck to you.
Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks for the interview Spencer. It`s great we`re able to hear directly from the guys in the field. I don`t know if any one at Histogen is taking taking questions now, but I`ve heard about `Pan-Asian` trials but aside from Singapore I haven`t heard of any other countries in Asia taking part in the trials. Which, if any, other countries are going to take part in the trials? Thanks.
Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

My point exactly. No substantive information is not exactly something to be optimistic about.



But someone who also has a vested interest in making things seem as positive as possible.



Neither of those factors has been established yet.

First of all, early stage clinical trials seek to determine whether a particular treatment manifests any immediately obvious deleterious effects serious enough to warrant discontinuation of the trials. If if doesn't, then the trials can proceed, but that milestone is very far from demonstrating that a treatment is "safe" in an overall sense. Safety is something which can only be determined with much wider trials, a much larger user base, and the passage of time (as numerous recalls of previously approved drugs have demonstrated).

Second, any trial of a treatment for regrowing hair would realistically have run at least two years (and possibly longer) just to determine whether the new hairs produced by the treatment survive an anagen/telogen cycle. Even then, you don't know for sure -- a newly produced hair might survive the first cycle, but that's no guarantee it won't, say, (akin to miniaturization) grow progressively weaker and fail to survive subsequent cycles. What the long term benefits or effects will be are something that can only be determined in the long term, and obviously none of us here is going to be able to wait a couple of lifetimes to verrify how things pan out.
You make valid points but the reality is the results are positive enough for at least 10 million dollors of additional funding to have been received to continue the work Histogen is doing.
I cant tell you that HSC is the answer but I am sure that this work will at least contribute to helping the "Scientific Hair community" come up with an answer and that is what research and trials are all about.

Doc Z

[CVAZBAR]

Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well.

I know you spoke about the 2 year trials so far and how hairs were still present after that time. If histogen does not do much as far as growth for some, will it at least guarantee no further hair loss? Did you notice this in pre trials?

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I know you spoke about the 2 year trials so far and how hairs were still present after that time. If histogen does not do much as far as growth for some, will it at least guarantee no further hair loss? Did you notice this in pre trials?
I dont want to mislead you as this was not directly looked at ,however the study showed a net gain in terminal hairs and hair thickness. So a net gain can have 3 components : 1. New terminal Hairs 2. Reversal of miniaturizing hairs and 3. As you suggest , the prevention or slowing down of the progressive nature of hair loss.
Also the observation that HSC increased individual hair diameter is very significant from an overall aesthetic point of view.This has the potential to be very beneficial to women and men with overall thin hair and diffuse loss.

Doc Z

Dr.Craig Ziering DO, FAOCD

[gmonasco]

Well if you already knew all the answers, why are you disappointed? I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.

You might find this system works best if you actually take the time to read and comprehend material prior to responding to it.

[abb83]

everything sounds interesting but if 2013-2014 wasnt mentioned as potential dates this is very frustrating :s

[fontanajul]

Thanks Dr. Ziering for posting replies to all our questions. That's pretty awesome of you. I'm really looking forward to hearing and seeing more from histogen!

-Max

[blowmeup]

Thanks for answering my question Dr. Ziering, this is by far the best and most informative hair forum on the internet!!! When I read some of the other ones it all posts based on speculation from people who really have no clue what’s going on.

One more thing doctor if you don’t mind, do you think a person who’s approaching a Norwood 5 or 6 can be helped with Histogen?

Thank you:)

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks Dr. Ziering for posting replies to all our questions. That's pretty awesome of you. I'm really looking forward to hearing and seeing more from histogen!

-Max
My pleasure

Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks for answering my question Dr. Ziering, this is by far the best and most informative hair forum on the internet!!! When I read some of the other ones it all posts based on speculation from people who really have no clue what’s going on.

One more thing doctor if you don’t mind, do you think a person who’s approaching a Norwood 5 or 6 can be helped with Histogen?

Thank you:)
It has the potential to treat all stages of hairloss .

Best of luck

Doc Z

[Westonci]

Hello Dr. Ziering.

I got an email from gail naugton last month saying "We are starting phase 1/2 in Singapore before the end of May and hope to have phase 3 pan-Asian data by Sept 2012 for an NDA submission and 2013 approval. (hopefull Q2 2013)."

Is it possible that the NDA submissions could be shortened? Does it have to be 6-12 months long?

Is it possible to lobby the Singapore Health Authority to shorten it?

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Sorry , but I dont see this time frame being shortened.

Doc Z

[Westonci]

Are the new hairs from the HSC injections colored hair, for a person with greying hair?

For example if a person has white hair (ie anderson cooper) will the new grown hairs from HSC injections be white or black?

[CVAZBAR]

You might find this system works best if you actually take the time to read and comprehend material prior to responding to it.

Trust me, Iv'e read the material. What you wrote has been said a thousand times. You don't need to repeat it over and over. You want all the answers but the studies are just starting. Relax

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Are the new hairs from the HSC injections colored hair, for a person with greying hair?

For example if a person has white hair (ie anderson cooper) will the new grown hairs from HSC injections be white or black?
The hair would likely take on its original darker color

[Westonci]

Thank you for your response Dr. Ziering.

I have a theoretical question. Lets just say a random billionaire from the middle east donated $250 million to Histogen.

Would the time line then still be 2013-2014 for pan asia approval?

Or would the extra funds mean that Histogen could exponentially speed up clinical trails?

[gmonasco]

Trust me, Iv'e read the material.

Once again, you've demonstrated that you haven't bothered actually reading what you're responding to.

[Supernova]

Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no coherent statements that Histogen actually gives you noticeable (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are always fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.

[Gubter_87]

Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no coherent statements that Histogen actually gives you noticeable (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are always fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.

You're forgetting that if this makes it through trials it will be the third treatment ever approved by the FDA for treatment of hair loss.
The general "scam" product that you are talking about does not go through the rigorous testing for efficiacy and safety that is mandatory when seeking approval for a potential medical treatment.

You can't compare this to the other scam products out there - if this makes it through the trials it will definately be beneficial!

[Westonci]

Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no coherent statements that Histogen actually gives you noticeable (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are always fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.

Your paranoid SUPERNOVA, Histogen is funded by Venture investors, and these people want to see results before they give histogen millions of dollars. Im sure that histogen has shown these people more than enough proof that HSC works.

[CVAZBAR]

Once again, you've demonstrated that you haven't bothered actually reading what you're responding to.

Ok let me ask you a question. Im guessing you've followed the past Histogen interviews and are aware that the phase 1 and 2 trials are just starting. Im sure you know they already reported results from the pre trials, in which you can see pictures they posted. Knowing all this, what made you so disappointed about this last interview? What were you expecting to hear?

[UK_]

I remember when Intercytex came out claiming their DP cells induced "significant hair growth" in 4 out of 5 patients, but they totally fell on their Phase II trials. I am thus highly anticipating the results of Histogen's Phase II, the primary issue here is how their research affirms the findings made earlier this year regarding the inactive (but present) stem cells in bald scalps.

Also, if you look at their findings, the increases in terms of percentage gain (e.g. terminal hairs) are similar according to the dose of HSC that was applied, this is also promising; showing that there is an element of 'order' to the procedure and results that arrive from it.

[reset]

Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well.

Thanks for answering my question. Don`t mind the negative posts. A lot of anger/frustration over losing hair sometimes translates to negative posts. I hope you`ll be able to keep us apprised of new developments.

On a side note, Singapore has transformed itself as the leading bio-tech hub in Asia and among the top hubs across the entire globe. Seems no coincidence Histogen chose Singapore as a place to conduct trials. Some links for anyone that`s interested.

http://www.massdevice.com/blogs/nik-see/lessons-singapores-bio-science-hubs

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/1106583/1/.html

http://www.outsourcing-pharma.com/Clinical-Development/Singapore-plans-to-double-its-clinical-trials

[blowmeup]

Great post reset! We’re all bitter about losing our hair, but I could never understand why some guys try to take it out on these forums. It only detracts from the point and it’s obnoxious.:mad:

[Supernova]

You're forgetting that if this makes it through trials it will be the third treatment ever approved by the FDA for treatment of hair loss.
The general "scam" product that you are talking about does not go through the rigorous testing for efficiacy and safety that is mandatory when seeking approval for a potential medical treatment.

You can't compare this to the other scam products out there - if this makes it through the trials it will definately be beneficial!

Oh yeah? Well then how about Rogaine? That's "FDA Approved" and it's a scam. Yes I know, there a claims and reports of people re-growing hair from the use of Rogaine, but are you getting the hair you're paying for? Seriously, people spend over $500 a year on something that only gives them little to no more hair? I've never seen a real miracle story with Rogaine. But as far as Histogen goes, I don't know.. I think they only treatment for Male Pattern Baldness that will do anyone any good will be the cure. Meaning, when scientists find a way to awaken the stem cells in the scalp to re-grow follicles into new hairs. Histogen sounds like it's just going to be another stimulation, like the equivalent to taking certain multi-vitamins to promote hair-growth.

[UK_]

Oh yeah? Well then how about Rogaine? That's "FDA Approved" and it's a scam. Yes I know, there a claims and reports of people re-growing hair from the use of Rogaine, but are you getting the hair you're paying for? Seriously, people spend over $500 a year on something that only gives them little to no more hair? I've never seen a real miracle story with Rogaine. But as far as Histogen goes, I don't know.. I think they only treatment for Male Pattern Baldness that will do anyone any good will be the cure. Meaning, when scientists find a way to awaken the stem cells in the scalp to re-grow follicles into new hairs. Histogen sounds like it's just going to be another stimulation, like the equivalent to taking certain multi-vitamins to promote hair-growth.

Histogen has promising Phase I results and an exciting factor was when Dr Ziering stated that the hair maintained/continued to grow even after a 2 year follow-up. This was after one injection of a very small amount of the HSC; the theory stacks up - they mimic what occurs during embryogenesis, we know wnt proteins are instrumental in signalling stem cells to perform certain actions.

A scam is a type of deception, how many times have you heard companies tell you that Rogaine (1) may not work for all people (2) you will lose whatever you gain/keep after stopping usage etc - just because the drug is not as effective does not make it a scam. I highly anticipate Phase II results, this year will be make or break, literally.

[RichardDawkins]

Let me put it this way Supernova.

If Histogen is a scam (i really doubt it because they also have a lot of other succesfull things in their portfolio), a scam which stops your hairloss and also gains regrow on every NW scale in a significant way, like they show it.

Well then iam very glad to fall for this scam. I really think you mistake Minoxil with cell treatment here.

HSC works in another way then Minox, i think that even if Histogen is not permanently and you have to get another injection every 5 years or so, with further injections will come more of your hairs back.

As Dr Ziering stated here, when some user asked a really good question about White and grey hair turn back to normal. You can see that HSC will turn back the clock for hairloss. Just accumulate how long (in years) it took for some people to turn their hair from lets say black to grey.

And i think as a rule of thumb you can say that one round of injection will buy you exactly this time again.

But maybe iam wrong and HSC is permanent. You know you can turn it as you will, a combination of lets say Acell/Plucking or Acell/FUE multiplication and Histogen is

way way way better then using Minox and Propecia. OK not only way better, its the future.

And yes its no coincident that they do their trials in asia. In fact a lot of other biotech companys do this as well.

And iam really glad that in asian countrys its not like in our western cultures, i mean right now people are discussing about stem cells and stuff, which is stupid.

I believe that every possible benefit in science should be used. Its like in this one episode of family guy. Where Peter got a stroke and then he went to a lab which said something like " Stem Cell Research" and he comes out of it normal and says something like " Wow and they really abandon this"

I know not every stem cell is a stem cell but the essence here should be clear.

[matlondon]

time to start saving, i know others that would like to grow hair but refuse to do ht. btw when would we see a UK or pan european release.

[RichardDawkins]

i agree time to start saving and do some workout stuff

[UK_]

time to start saving, i know others that would like to grow hair but refuse to do ht. btw when would we see a UK or pan european release.

My personal 'opinion' here is that the UK will lag behind the States, as has been the general trend for several decades now, I dont really mean to have a dig at British companies but lets be honest - if it wasn't for the likes of Aderans, Follica and Histogen - what else would we have? Intercytex? lol.

Here are the guys who sent shares rocking to $100 each after proclaiming their DP cells induced significant growth in 4 out of 5 patients; and in second clinical trials totally blew it landing investors in deep...

This is why I cannot place enough emphasis of the coming 12 months regarding Histogens Phase II, if they can pull off what they did in Phase I again - it will be literally revolutionary.

[CVAZBAR]

My personal 'opinion' here is that the UK will lag behind the States, as has been the general trend for several decades now, I dont really mean to have a dig at British companies but lets be honest - if it wasn't for the likes of Aderans, Follica and Histogen - what else would we have? Intercytex? lol.

Here are the guys who sent shares rocking to $100 each after proclaiming their DP cells induced significant growth in 4 out of 5 patients; and in second clinical trials totally blew it landing investors in deep...

This is why I cannot place enough emphasis of the coming 12 months regarding Histogens Phase II, if they can pull off what they did in Phase I again - it will be literally revolutionary.

Not disagreeing with you but isn't Aderans the same idea as Intercytex? My question is that if Intercytex failed, why is Aderans still trying the same? Hopefully it's for a positive reason.

[CVAZBAR]

Let me put it this way Supernova.

If Histogen is a scam (i really doubt it because they also have a lot of other succesfull things in their portfolio), a scam which stops your hairloss and also gains regrow on every NW scale in a significant way, like they show it.

Well then iam very glad to fall for this scam. I really think you mistake Minoxil with cell treatment here.

HSC works in another way then Minox, i think that even if Histogen is not permanently and you have to get another injection every 5 years or so, with further injections will come more of your hairs back.

As Dr Ziering stated here, when some user asked a really good question about White and grey hair turn back to normal. You can see that HSC will turn back the clock for hairloss. Just accumulate how long (in years) it took for some people to turn their hair from lets say black to grey.

And i think as a rule of thumb you can say that one round of injection will buy you exactly this time again.

But maybe iam wrong and HSC is permanent. You know you can turn it as you will, a combination of lets say Acell/Plucking or Acell/FUE multiplication and Histogen is

way way way better then using Minox and Propecia. OK not only way better, its the future.

And yes its no coincident that they do their trials in asia. In fact a lot of other biotech companys do this as well.

And iam really glad that in asian countrys its not like in our western cultures, i mean right now people are discussing about stem cells and stuff, which is stupid.

I believe that every possible benefit in science should be used. Its like in this one episode of family guy. Where Peter got a stroke and then he went to a lab which said something like " Stem Cell Research" and he comes out of it normal and says something like " Wow and they really abandon this"

I know not every stem cell is a stem cell but the essence here should be clear.
Rich dawg, you hit it straight on. I think that truly is the only hope to actually have great hair again. Histogen most likely wont do it on its own but a combination of things. If Histogen can regrow some hair or prevent further thinning, than you can get transplants and maybe future plucking/no scar unlimited donor transplants. And if Aderans comes through, then forget it. 40's are going to be the new 20's hahaha. Also, kets take note that Hitzig said he was working on the STEM CELL from him extraction/PRP enhanced treatment. He has the idea that maybe these injections will be the ones to turn the cells to progenitor cells. If this works, then we won't even have to wait for Histogen. He said he was going to learn how to do the procedure in a couple weeks and would try it. We will find out this year how that works as well.

[clee984]

I believe that every possible benefit in science should be used. Its like in this one episode of family guy. Where Peter got a stroke and then he went to a lab which said something like " Stem Cell Research" and he comes out of it normal and says something like " Wow and they really abandon this"

.

There's a book called 'Ending Aging' by Aubrey De Grey (who you probably hang around with knowing the circles you move in, Dawkins) in which he gets magnificently indignant about how the Bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to railroad stem cell research because of their own religious convictions. And he even states (whether this is true or not I don't know, I'm just taking his word for it), that they fall down by their own definition of what constitutes "life". These clumps of cells could never and would never become "alive". They would be disposed of anyway, whether they were experimented with or not. Tbh, I didn't understand a lot of the science, but I like him, despite the man clearly being mentally ill. Interesting book.

[Manwhore]

Is the interview with doc z able to be heard? If so, how do I get it to play? Thanks.

[UK_]

Not disagreeing with you but isn't Aderans the same idea as Intercytex? My question is that if Intercytex failed, why is Aderans still trying the same? Hopefully it's for a positive reason.

Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference. Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.

[UK_]

Rich dawg, you hit it straight on. I think that truly is the only hope to actually have great hair again. Histogen most likely wont do it on its own but a combination of things. If Histogen can regrow some hair or prevent further thinning, than you can get transplants and maybe future plucking/no scar unlimited donor transplants.

I'd second that, I've been following the Hitzig Cooley & Cole discussion about the Acell, my views is that if Acell can be used to enhance the growth of lung tissue then I am sure it can be used to grow follicles lol - hair loss science by no means moves at exponential rates, but doctors, researchers and the general hair loss community combining to share ideas is what is going to really propel better treatments.

I mean maybe Aderans will gain stronger/thicker multiplied extracted stem cells by following the methods used by Histogen in terms of how they create that embryonic cell state, maybe they're already doing this who knows.

[matlondon]

There's a book called 'Ending Aging' by Aubrey De Grey (who you probably hang around with knowing the circles you move in, Dawkins) in which he gets magnificently indignant about how the Bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to railroad stem cell research because of their own religious convictions. And he even states (whether this is true or not I don't know, I'm just taking his word for it), that they fall down by their own definition of what constitutes "life". These clumps of cells could never and would never become "alive". They would be disposed of anyway, whether they were experimented with or not. Tbh, I didn't understand a lot of the science, but I like him, despite the man clearly being mentally ill. Interesting book.

Well it doesnt matter what the US did, China has helped push stem cell medicine, Western companies have no option now but to either start R&D or lose out in the near future.
Big pharmas are already feeling the pain as the products patients are coming to an end, or they can no longer rehash old medication into new medication, they can no longer lobby to restrict this technology. If they don’t join and progress this tech they are out of business. we ARE SEEING THE END OF 19/20 CENTURY Medicine.

With regards to this histogen tech, not only will it help bold people but they will gain revenue from a wider audience as people that have a bit of a receding hair line will opt forward for a small fix, burnt individuals might have the chance to re growth their hair, cancer patients the list it endless.

The next break through is tooth enamel/tooth regeneration and this is only a few years away in fact trials of enamel should be starting this year and tooth regeneration in 2 years time.

Those 2 products will end up making trillions your looking at a complete different lifestyle for many, benefiting society as a whole.

This is what we need as a society stem cell medicine it will reduce government costs, reduce insurance industry costs, yet produce amazing revenue for those companies.

Banks are dipping into these companies and not into big pharmas as much as they used to. You price the product at the right level you'll make huge profits, you price it our of reach of the average person the profits will not be as great, another issue these companies that can produce this product will have control over it, not like HT etc... and there is demand for hair regeneration products BIG demand.

[matlondon]

BTW Intercytex product was a success, the problem wasnt about the product but seeking investment, now this is more of a cultural problem in the UK. In the UK if you have a novel idea you find it hard to find investors, UK investors dont really liek to take that much risk, on top of that they really didnt sell themselves to big investment banks while at teh same time it was unfortunate that the crunch happened.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I must admit that I am very impressed and delighted with the level of interest and depth of knowledge displayed by this forums posts.
It is great that we all share such passion for hair.
I would like to comment on a few things .
1.HSC is not for sale now and if and when it is , it will have very specific and well substantiated proof for any claims that it makes.
2.I can only speak for myself but I would bet my peers have the same sentiment.
I welcome any product or technique that benefits people suffering from hairloss regardless of its origins.
3.I am in this field because I love it and I have dedicated over 20 years to the field and my patients and maintain that it is a blessing and a priveledge to do what my staff and I do.
4.I am becoming involved with a hair restoration practice in the UK ,and with the help of several of my colleagues we hope to raise the level of care,knowledge and skills in the UK and educate patients about all their options.
I like many of you just hope to have a positive impact on peoples lives.
Thank you for including me in this process.

Doc Z

[jasinfla]

Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!

[fontanajul]

As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me.

-Max

[RichardDawkins]

Thanks guys. Well iam not into this one guy you spoke about. I choose Richard.Dawkins for specific reasons as a user name. The reason is simple, people who are so extremely devoted to god will just let their potential and their ideas slip.

Like someone here said, "christians" discuss about stem cells as if you go to hell when you use them, i say nonsense. A lot of other countries are so far involved in stem cell cures that in lets say three years or so they will make our "technology" obsolete to a certain point, thats for sure.

You can see those impacts these days, no one is really investing any more in our average US/European biotech lab anymore. Instead investors are going to the east. And who can blame them.

If i would be a millionaire and there is someone in the east with a working concept and successul pre trails for lets say a cure for cancer. I would gladly invest in his company rather then some "christian" biotech lab in the bible belt or so.

Another thing we see in europe is the medical tourism. Where people actually travel to other countries to get something fixed or repaired. The sad thing is, over the years more and more of those countries developed higher medical standards whereas the county i live in is pretty much stuck on "theories and concepts".

Let me put it this way if Cooley/Hitzig and Histogen are the asian biotech company then we have FUT-Puppet Pluck surgeons in our country.

Oh and Dr Ziering said something pretty important, to actually educate patients with upcoming treatments today. In germany well they wouldnt tell you anything about Acell even if you would put a gun to their head.

US-Hairloss sufferers should at least be glad to a certain point, theire surgeons are willed to go new ways, even if it would take 2 or 3 years, at least some of them are doing something.

But also the hairloss community has the obligation to educate their surgeons, i send some emails to some surgeons in germany and contacted some via phone. Guess what only ONE was interested in considering Acell. They asked me if i could help them with some informations etc.

The others were not interested or came up with stupid arguments like "This wont work its snake oil"

So i did at least what i could for german hairloss sufferers, i hope you guys get also the motivation to convice your surgeons to use or try or experiment with Acell.

And thanks Dr Ziering for answering the questions here. The interest is actually far beyond everything you can imagine. The same goes for Acell "multiplication"

[matlondon]

I must admit that I am very impressed and delighted with the level of interest and depth of knowledge displayed by this forums posts.
It is great that we all share such passion for hair.
I would like to comment on a few things .
1.HSC is not for sale now and if and when it is , it will have very specific and well substantiated proof for any claims that it makes.
2.I can only speak for myself but I would bet my peers have the same sentiment.
I welcome any product or technique that benefits people suffering from hairloss regardless of its origins.
3.I am in this field because I love it and I have dedicated over 20 years to the field and my patients and maintain that it is a blessing and a priveledge to do what my staff and I do.
4.I am becoming involved with a hair restoration practice in the UK ,and with the help of several of my colleagues we hope to raise the level of care,knowledge and skills in the UK and educate patients about all their options.
I like many of you just hope to have a positive impact on peoples lives.
Thank you for including me in this process.

Doc Z

But if you are involved then you must have a price range for the product?
Hair loss regeneration is a matter of time, i guess companies are rushing to be the 1st to release this product before others to build up a client base and their market share. If this product truely works then more men would seek help. We all know HT is the very last resort and an act of desperation, having a few injections matter of 30 mins +/-. the issue with all the other hair loss products is time consuming and remembering to take the meds etc..

If the product works hair loss centers will be like dental surgeries, you would go in hand over cells come back in 2 week get treated and leave. Freeing up time for both the individual and the doctor, everyone wins.
The reason i know there would be a big demand for a cell based hair regeneration product, like the ones in progress, i have spoken to a few people about hair loss and when i mentioned a couple of injections for reverse hair loss their eyes open up and they all said they would opt for it, and this is from a small sample of 23 men.

[PayDay]

As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me.

-Max

It’s not dramatic! The Bald truth show, and this forum have helped my life more then words can describe. Before I found this, I felt very alone and unhappy. Thank you Dr. Ziering for taking the time to help us all out.

[LarryDavid]

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?

[clee984]

Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!

Dr Zeiring, if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "like" for having the sign off "Doc Z"! It makes you sound like a comic book supervillian :D

The stem cell debate always reminds me of the napster controversey: The technology is there. It isn't going to go away just because you click your heels together and say there's no place like home. Trying to deny it or stop it, for religious or any other reasons, helps nobody.

[RichardDawkins]

Yeah but it slows the success down. And this is annoying ;-)

[UK_]

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?


If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.

Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65% of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?) Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair. My question to all the sceptics is: Where's the shed? HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.

So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.

[CVAZBAR]

If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.

Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65% of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?) Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair. My question to all the sceptics is: Where's the shed? HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.

So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.

If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?

[CVAZBAR]

Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference. Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.

Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.

[UK_]

If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?

Interesting comment, a lot of individuals see it as a far fetched idea that even some day 60 - 70 year old men may have full heads of hair, but it does happen, and therefore if it is physically possible to achieve - in this case then we need to look at the obstacles, overcome them and re-create from the bottom-up what we lost, which is exactly the purpose of 'regenerative' medicine.

The concept of regenerative medicine (as we all know) has attracted a large degree of controversy, and what I am about to say may seem far fetched but do consider it, if in nature certain animals can lose a limb and grow it back within a few days, then it is technically feasible (as we are viewing its occurrence in nature) we just need to find out how it is done and apply it to humans.

[UK_]

Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.

Aderans focuses on transplanting stem cells from the back of the scalp to balding areas, they have several protocols, Follica keep their cards close to their chest but I believe they are working in the same direction as Histogen by using types of 'gene therapy' to induce follicular neogenesis. Trichoscience seems similar to Intercytex, they may either be working with DP cells or Stem Cells.

Still, Histogen have clearly set a new standard with a 2 year follow-up and no hair loss in any of the patients that were apart of that first 80% circle; I believe Aderans helped 50% maintain new follicles after 1 year and their best protocol worked well (in this sense "noticeable hair gains) in 70% of patients which again lags behind Histogens achievements.

[KeepHoping]

There is a lot of speculation that the histogen product won't work as well for people that have gotten transplants becuase transplants may cause damage or destroy surrounding follicles in the recipient area, I'm not sure if this is the case but if so, do you think Histogen's product would be less effective? And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient?

In other words is Histogen's HSC dependant on reawakening dormant follicles or is it actually creating brand new follicles is what I'm wondering if you have the answer to. This is very important for people considering hair transplants at this point, especially me with a MPB pattern but with diffuse thinning across the top of the scalp, if your product works by reawakening follicles in their original positions then it could potentially give me my natural head of hair again as I had when I was a kid if it's only creating new ones, it makes no difference and I can go and get a transplant.

Thanks

[UK_]

And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient? Thanks

That's a good point, you're possibly damaging the still existing stem cells/follicles in the recipient area and also creating scar tissue in the donor area, but the HSC could also be used to stimulate new follicles in the rear of the scalp and have them transplanted to frontal areas. However, the statement of 'creating new hair follicles' is a controversial one; referring to the work by Follica for instance, they stated that even in a scalp that appears literally shining bald, the hair is still present but it is microscopic.

So in that context, another way of looking at how the HSC is working, is not that it is creating new follicles but it is actually kicking those microscopic scalp hairs back into action, which also ties in well with the high degree of "control" the HSC imputes as stated by Dr Ziering, in other words; perhaps the reason he didnt see hair sprouting from the forehead etc is because those stem cells are just not present there. Now you have to question, what is in store for an individual who may have lost those miniaturised stem cells through constant transplants, I hope after Phase II we will gain answers to such questions.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?
The Histogen study was originally a safety study with 12 mos follow up, with efficacy as a secondary endpoint. The Company was able to modify the clinical protocol to add a two year safety endpoint but couldn't perform the full efficacy study. Photos were taken of the treatment site which indicate persistence of hair at the treatment site but an accurate hair number and thickness assessment can not be done. The scientists at Histogen believe that the new hairs seen at 1 year are a result of stimulating stem cells in the scalp and in existing normal and miniaturizing follicles to grow new hairs. There is no reason to believe that additional hairs would be stimulated after one year with only one injection at baseline. That being said, the fact that new hairs continue to grow over the one year period is quite remarkable and unprecedented in the hair growth field.

Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.

Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

That's a good point, you're possibly damaging the still existing stem cells/follicles in the recipient area and also creating scar tissue in the donor area, but the HSC could also be used to stimulate new follicles in the rear of the scalp and have them transplanted to frontal areas. However, the statement of 'creating new hair follicles' is a controversial one; referring to the work by Follica for instance, they stated that even in a scalp that appears literally shining bald, the hair is still present but it is microscopic.

So in that context, another way of looking at how the HSC is working, is not that it is creating new follicles but it is actually kicking those microscopic scalp hairs back into action, which also ties in well with the high degree of "control" the HSC imputes as stated by Dr Ziering, in other words; perhaps the reason he didnt see hair sprouting from the forehead etc is because those stem cells are just not present there. Now you have to question, what is in store for an individual who may have lost those miniaturised stem cells through constant transplants, I hope after Phase II we will gain answers to such questions.
Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect was seen within 2mm of the injection site.

The HSC works by stimulating stem cells in the dermal papilla of the hair follicle to grow new hairs. It also seems that stem cells in the scalp can be stimulated to grow into new hair follicles. This has been shown to be possible in the mouse model using the components that are part of HSC and so Histogen's trial really substantiates in patients with male pattern baldness what has been shown to be possible in mice for the past few years.

Doc Z

[LarryDavid]

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. I´m looking forward to the 4 weeks update and thank you for sharing this with the community.

I have one more question:
If HSC only stimulates the existing hairfollicles (not creates new follicles) to grow new hair, I assume that you can even build a natural Hairline with HSC because (for example) if u inject the HSC on the forehead, there would be no terminal hairgrowth.

I hope you understand what i mean :)

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. I´m looking forward to the 4 weeks update and thank you for sharing this with the community.

I have one more question:
If HSC only stimulates the existing hairfollicles (not creates new follicles) to grow new hair, I assume that you can even build a natural Hairline with HSC because (for example) if u inject the HSC on the forehead, there would be no terminal hair growth.

I hope you understand what i mean :)
The take home point for your question is that the treatment effect was seen within 2mm of the injection site. This means it can be well contolled and localized.

Doc Z

[RichardDawkins]

Dr Ziering i have another question.

You said something about 25 hairs per 0.1cc injection. I am not familiar how i can set this in relation to anything else.

Could you perhaps give an example in what relation we can put this. I really dont know under what circumstances 0.1cc are much and under what circumstances 0.1cc is almost nothing.

And does this mean that you got 25 hairs at an areal of 2mm times 2mm? If so, this does mean you got your natural hairdensity or am i wrong.

And another question, do you see some significanc in hair appearance like the new hair looks somehow more youthful and healthy when compared to donor area.

Maybe those are stupid questions but they help me to understand the relations here.

Also iam impressed that Histogen is going for the full frontal right now 50+ injections Holy Crap. And also wow four weeks, i didnt really expect anything from Histogen by lets say end of 2011 the earliest.

Thanks for your patience

[gmonasco]

The scientists at Histogen believe that the new hairs seen at 1 year are a result of stimulating stem cells in the scalp and in existing normal and miniaturizing follicles to grow new hairs.

I'm a little confused: Why would HSC cause "existing normal follicles" to be growing "new hair"? Aren't normal follicles already growing hair? Do you mean that they're coming out of the telogen phase earlier than they normally would?

[UK_]

Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect was seen within 2mm of the injection site.

The HSC works by stimulating stem cells in the dermal papilla of the hair follicle to grow new hairs. It also seems that stem cells in the scalp can be stimulated to grow into new hair follicles. This has been shown to be possible in the mouse model using the components that are part of HSC and so Histogen's trial really substantiates in patients with male pattern baldness what has been shown to be possible in mice for the past few years.

Doc Z

Wow this is great information Dr Ziering, thank you kindly for sharing it with us all, we're very lucky to have you on this forum answering our questions. It is very pleasing to note that there was a further increase in growth at 12 months even after the 5 month drop-off, it seems to me that the HSC seems to be working well in-line with the natural growth/resting phases of the hair cycle itself.

[KeepHoping]

Dr. Ziering,

I'm not asking for a definitive answer if you don't know but what I was asking was whether or not having a transplant will effect HSC's ability to work because the transplanted hair may damage follicles underneith the surface of the skin or even destroy follicles that were there to make room for the follicles being transplanted. I think many people are worried about getting a transplant at this point because although histogen would be able to make the transplanted hair thicker it may not be able to restore a person to his/her natural density because of damage of dormant follicles.

Thank you so much for being active in the forum and helping those suffering with hairloss, I think I speak for many of us when i say it is greatly appreciated.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Dr. Ziering,

I'm not asking for a definitive answer if you don't know but what I was asking was whether or not having a transplant will effect HSC's ability to work because the transplanted hair may damage follicles underneith the surface of the skin or even destroy follicles that were there to make room for the follicles being transplanted. I think many people are worried about getting a transplant at this point because although histogen would be able to make the transplanted hair thicker it may not be able to restore a person to his/her natural density because of damage of dormant follicles.

Thank you so much for being active in the forum and helping those suffering with hairloss, I think I speak for many of us when i say it is greatly appreciated.
No I dont believe that having a hair transplant now will be detrimental in anyway with regard to future treatment with HSC.

[rapunzal]

Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.
Doc Z

Dr Ziering
How do these exploratory case studies fit into the phased trial studies that will commence in a few months ? Is it an early start of the trials or to test a range of protocols that will be used in the trials
cheers

[gmonasco]

So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection.

Uh, no. You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications. That is something which has to be established through testing.

[mlao]

Dr. Zering I have a question regarding how HSC will ultimately be distributed
if and when it is released. Will you set up clinics under the banner of Histogen or will it be administered by independent doctors who are trained in its application.

[CVAZBAR]

Uh, no. You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications. That is something which has to be established through testing.

Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials. Why didn't you answer my question on my last reply?

[gmonasco]

Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials

"We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet." Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."

[gmonasco]

I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.

Please try to follow along. Move your lips while you read if it helps.

What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime. That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."

[CVAZBAR]

Please try to follow along. Move your lips while you read if it helps.

What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime. That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."

HAHAHA exactly. Avoid my question. Go copy and paste more of my comments if that makes you feel better. I said it once and ill say it again, move your lips while you read it as well. WE STILL DONT KNOW SHIT UNTIL THE TRIALS ARE DONE. Hopefully using caps will help you.

[CVAZBAR]

"We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet." Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."

That's my point lame. You are only just assuming shit as well. That's why i sarcastically said if you use one injection, you can use it again if it grew in the first place but did you take the time to read what i wrote after?? I clearly stated, It's obvious we don't know shit at this point. So why don't we stop assuming and let the trials finish. What were you expecting from this interview? We already had the results from the pre-trials. 4 Months later you were expecting to hear breaking news on WHAT?? ha. I don't feel like arguing back and forth over this shit. Someone else clearly told you before i even said anything. Blowmeup wrote "I’m pretty sure that was all covered in this interview" and he gave you the link. Now if you never followed the past Histogen interviews, then i understand why you might be disappointed. Other than that, i don't understand what you're crying about. Histogen had nothing new to post. TRIALS JUST STARTING.

[tbtadmin]

We ask that all users of BTT forums act in a respectful and civil manner when posting their questions, concerns and opinions. This is a place to learn from each other, share ideas and information and to communicate with experts in the field, not a place to voice unfounded personal attacks.

Thank you for your cooperation on this matter.

[CVAZBAR]

I apologize

[gmonasco]

You are only just assuming shit as well.

Here's a handy reference guide:

The statement "I believe, without evidence, that X is true" is an assumption.

The statement "You cannot know X to be true without evidence" is not an assumption.

[ThinFast]

Come on guys, just drop it... we sound like idiots arguing over things that really cannot be argued on at this point. Take it to pm if you need closure.


Doc Z, thank you very much for answering all of the questions. We are all EXTREMELY excited about the development of HSC. To my understanding, HSC "resets the clock" back to the beginning. When I was younger, I had much lighter and curlier hair than what I've had for most of my life (which is now dark and straight). From listening to multiple interviews, I wonder if my hair would first take on the blonde curly type I had as a child?

[RichardDawkins]

I hope that Dr Z will answer my questions :(

[Kamille]

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.

[UK_]

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.

Hi,

I think some of the following links might be of use to you in answering your questions regarding HSC, (particularly the first one in which Spencer directly asks Gail Naughton about treatments for women).

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles/histogen-continued-hair-growth-interview/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1349

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1824

[Kamille]

Thank you for the links!

[andycanon]

i just wish all these companies who are doing the same thing would join forces and get a move on this.. as competition may only speed things up to get there before each other maybe causing or missing some important factors when rushing.

Its like government why is there always many sides and one leader.. can they not just all work together and bloody use some team work?

[mlao]

At this point I believe that Aderans is the leader in this race. They keep their research fairly quiet unless they have something concrete to announce. They have significantly more revenue to invest in the research, and they are already in phase II trials.
Why Histogen talks about phase II trials which they continually postpone is beyond me. They say that they have gotten 10 million dollars in investments but if the product is so good I would think that venture capitalists would be falling over themselves to invest.
They did a pilot study with 25 subjects yet they have only shown one photo of hair growth in a real headshot (not those magnified pictures of small areas) and haven't bothered to explain it in detail on any forum.
I wish they would at least be open and honest to the millions of perspective customers who have waited years for a product like the one they supposedly have.
Just my two cents.

[gmonasco]

Its like government why is there always many sides and one leader.. can they not just all work together and bloody use some team work?

Because, unfortunately, the driving force in such research is a profit motive rather than the public good, and joining forces to work together is not conducive to maximizing profit.

It might be a good thing, though: if such research depended upon appeals to the public good for its funding, it might be an even much lower priority than it is now.

Sad to say, if pattern baldness affected little girls, there'd likely be yearly telethons raising millions and millions of research dollars to cure it.

[RichardDawkins]

I dont know who the eader is but all i can say is its not 5 to 10 years anymore. Also if you look from different angles here, well its obvious that something is cooking big time.

But one thing which really makes my piss boil is, that we could already had things fixed right now if the research would have gone in the right direction 10 or more years ago :-)

I bet if did would have started 10 years ago in the right direction, most of the younger hairloss sufferers would never experience hairloss in a dramatic way.

But as they always say better late then never, right. Also even if there are many negativ voices who say stuff like "he pulls hot air out of his ass" i can only respond " Well even in the biggest fart of hot air, there is always one single molecule which smells like roses".

It doesnt matter if someone keeps his informations close or someone presenting them to the public because guess what, the internet never forgets anything and i highly doubt that Dr Ziering, Histogen or whoever will come to the BaldTruth radio show only to get his reputation ass handed afterwards.

I think the fact that some doctors are trying new ways is, that the hairloss community gets more and more demanding and educated and also more and more repair cases come up :-( so its only natural to find something to please people and prepare yourself for the future.

In the short run (2years or so) my bet is on Acell plucking but the long run is on stuff like Histogen. The only thing i hope is that Histogens injection will really work more then just temporary PRP. A sure fire proof for the long run is the effect such an injection has on the donor area. If the hair got healthier etc then you have a winner.

Anyways i hope we get some infos in around 4 weeks. Btw guys till Histogen comes to market you should get your surgeons to establish Acell, because lets face it, the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market.

[gmonasco]

I dont know who the eader is but all i can say is its not 5 to 10 years anymore. Also if you look from different angles here, well its obvious that something is cooking big time.

I'd say that the tools for attacking the problem may finally be at hand, but how long it will take to use them to fashion a workable solution is up in the air.

i highly doubt that Dr Ziering, Histogen or whoever will come to the BaldTruth radio show only to get his reputation ass handed afterwards.

Maybe, but you can say a lot without actually saying much of anything. Most of the "official" talk about HSC so far has been along the lines of: "We did a preliminary test on a small group of subjects, and the results bring up more questions than anything else."

[LarryDavid]

the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market.

Why is that?

[RichardDawkins]

Thats a simple thing nobody actually adresses, people will get addicted to hair at a certain point. Let me put it this way

If Histogen would be on the market and your hairloss stops or is resetted and there is a hairtransplantation technique which guarantees unlimited donor.

Would you or wouldnt you get as much hair as possible even if you would look like Eddie Munster? Just answer yourself the question honestly.

And as much as i see potential in Histogen i dont know if you could get back full density so a hair transplant is then your weapon of choice even if you only fill in your sides.

I can tell you today, many men will be addicted to hairtransplants in the really near future, all i can say about me is, i hope i wont get addicted but i cant guarantee it myself and also i hope it wont bring me to the point where i begin to getting insane about myself and only love me.

Right now some may find this stupid or unrealistic but believe me with super technologies at hand its an easy thing to get addicted to something.

Cause face it, if the plucking technique is getting better and better you actually got "infinite" possibilities to do anything with your hair.

Speaking about me, iam that stupid iam actually savong money right now to get it done in the near future when more and more results, positive nature, are in.

And thats from someone who started like this " Uhhh hair transplant that sounds cool they only cut out some back of the head and then my headisfull of hear sure deal" yep that was me thank Vishnu i found messages boards.

[gmonasco]

If Histogen would be on the market and your hairloss stops or is resetted and there is a hairtransplantation technique which guarantees unlimited donor. Would you or wouldnt you get as much hair as possible even if you would look like Eddie Munster? Just answer yourself the question honestly.

I'd have my hair restored to the point that I was satisfied and comfortable with its look, and then I'd move on. But just as some people become addicted to other forms of cosmetic surgery, I'm sure some might become addicted to hair transplantation if the donor supply were unlimited.

[gmonasco]

Why is [it that the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market]?

Presumably because either might be able to increase the amount of hair on one's head, but not fully enough to create a desired cosmetic appearance (and thus would still need to be supplemented by hair transplants in some cases).

[RichardDawkins]

gmonasco you are right, this can be the case.

Also even if Histogen and Ari will work 120% i wouldnt rule out hair transplants. Its better to be safe then sorry.

Iam only realistic here, Histogen will have its unbattled and unreached high points when it comes to vertex restoration because i see the head as a two zone problem.

Zone 1 : Frontal area and the most important area can be restored with relatively less grafts

Zone 2 : Vertex area and the unbeaten source of everyones nightmare and also the Grafts grave.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

With working Histogen and working Acell Plucking i would do the following.

1) Create and fully restore my frontal area over the point of "Just an illusion" with Acell plucking

2) use Histogen for the rest

3) wait some years and then got the finishing touch if needed (at this point i hope hair transplant surgeons have figured out how to do FUE-multiplication :-)

4) Get addicted because i know myself ;-)

------------------------------------------------------

Anyway i think its very good to get positive updates because it helps a lot of hairloss sufferers

----------------------------------------------------
Oh and come to think of it. maybe some people think iam to overly optimistic. They may be right but let me put it this way

1) Even some docs have seen donor regrowth after FUE without Acell, thats a fact we all know.

So the simple question here is Why not go from a one time "accident" to a sure fire method? You get my drift here

With Acell the chances are getting to our favor, or are they not? Just do it, seat yourself for 5 minutes and think about this case, just think about it :-)

[CVAZBAR]

gmonasco you are right, this can be the case.

Also even if Histogen and Ari will work 120% i wouldnt rule out hair transplants. Its better to be safe then sorry.

Iam only realistic here, Histogen will have its unbattled and unreached high points when it comes to vertex restoration because i see the head as a two zone problem.

Zone 1 : Frontal area and the most important area can be restored with relatively less grafts

Zone 2 : Vertex area and the unbeaten source of everyones nightmare and also the Grafts grave.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

With working Histogen and working Acell Plucking i would do the following.

1) Create and fully restore my frontal area over the point of "Just an illusion" with Acell plucking

2) use Histogen for the rest

3) wait some years and then got the finishing touch if needed (at this point i hope hair transplant surgeons have figured out how to do FUE-multiplication :-)

4) Get addicted because i know myself ;-)

------------------------------------------------------

Anyway i think its very good to get positive updates because it helps a lot of hairloss sufferers

----------------------------------------------------
Oh and come to think of it. maybe some people think iam to overly optimistic. They may be right but let me put it this way

1) Even some docs have seen donor regrowth after FUE without Acell, thats a fact we all know.

So the simple question here is Why not go from a one time "accident" to a sure fire method? You get my drift here

With Acell the chances are getting to our favor, or are they not? Just do it, seat yourself for 5 minutes and think about this case, just think about it :-)

HAHA I want to think like you but I cant. I need to see it to believe it. I wish i could go to the future just to get the answer and then come back relaxed haha. Unless I find out the cure wont come till 20 years from now. ****!! Hopefully its 5 years TOPS.

[RichardDawkins]

Sometimes you have to think out of the box ;-) i say lets the next 4 to 5 weeks (yes 5 weeks cause timelines are ment to be broken)

But seriously Grafts grow back sometimes, ask any ht doc who performs FUE.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Dr. Zering I have a question regarding how HSC will ultimately be distributed
if and when it is released. Will you set up clinics under the banner of Histogen or will it be administered by independent doctors who are trained in its application.
I must state that I dont run Histogen but I am an advisor for them.
My suggestion would be to administer HSC by independent hair restoration surgeons who are trained in its application and are experienced in the field so we can closely monitor treatment and response .

Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.
Yes we absolutely plan trials for women in the future and I feel this is a very exciting application of HSC.

Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I'd have my hair restored to the point that I was satisfied and comfortable with its look, and then I'd move on. But just as some people become addicted to other forms of cosmetic surgery, I'm sure some might become addicted to hair transplantation if the donor supply were unlimited.
Aesthetic density will be achieved after we excede 50% of our normal complement of hair in a given area. This seems to me to be a logical endpoint.

Doc Z

[UK_]

I am very pleased to hear from Dr Ziering that Histogen have already commenced their initial exploratory studies (Phase I/II), I highly anticipate the results, as stated we have seen over the past few decades companies come and go with promise after promise, but in this respect I can atleast believe that the method Histogen adopts has shown to induce follicular neogenesis in animals - it just needed to be proven in humans aswel, which is where we are today.

I certainly agree that there could be a conflation of HSC and HT, rebuilding the frontal hairline may be better accomplished with a HT combined with Acell/plucking technique and HSC to complement the procedure to aid the growth in the extracted follicular units. I am sure the upcoming trials will aid in the answering of any further questions, one of which being whether the HSC could be applied in a topical format. Histogen has certainly battled through some tough times, and I truly wish them all the best of support in all of their research areas.

[RichardDawkins]

Agree, thats actually a good plan with the maximum effect you can have :)

And if you feel uncomfortable and your hairloss is on hold later on you could go for a FUE if its needed.

But i dont know why, but i think Histogen could get us back our original density i cant really say why i believe this but its a gutfeeling very strange

[mlao]

[QUOTE=Dr. Craig Ziering;22585]I must state that I dont run Histogen but I am an advisor for them.
My suggestion would be to administer HSC by independent hair restoration surgeons who are trained in its application and are experienced in the field so we can closely monitor treatment and response .

Doc Z[/QUO
TE]

Dr. Zering,
I'm not sure you can answer these questions perhaps Gail Naughton would have a better perspective on these, but since you seem to be the only representative of the Company speaking publicly right now I will pose them to you.
Don't you think there may be some trepidation for a lot of perspective patients from the west when having to travel to the far east to have the procedure done.
Or does Histogen believe that people would take a giant leap and go to a country where they are unfamiliar with the language, medical practices, and legal system to get their hair back.
Which brings to mind another question. Is this being promoted more heavily in the countries where the trials are being done.
These issues are the reason I asked in my earlier post if it would be performed under a clinic owned and sanction by Histogen.

[gmonasco]

Don't you think there may be some trepidation for a lot of perspective patients from the west when having to travel to the far east to have the procedure done.

Or does Histogen believe that people would take a giant leap and go to a country where they are unfamiliar with the language, medical practices, and legal system to get their hair back.

I can't speak for Dr. Ziering, of course, but the point is that the length of the approval process in Asian countries is significantly shorter than in North America, and there's not much Histogen can do about that fact. So, even though some patients may have trepidation about traveling to Asia for such a procedure, it's a better option than having no choice at all. Would anyone be better served if Histogen refrained from making their product available anywhere in the world until it had secured U.S. regulatory approval?

[mlao]

I can't speak for Dr. Ziering, of course, but the point is that the length of the approval process in Asian countries is significantly shorter than in North America, and there's not much Histogen can do about that fact. So, even though some patients may have trepidation about traveling to Asia for such a procedure, it's a better option than having no choice at all. Would anyone be better served if Histogen refrained from making their product available anywhere in the world until it had secured U.S. regulatory approval?

I am not suggesting that they wait until they receive U.S. approval.
I am saying that if a they had a Histogen owned and operated clinic that could deal with the intricacies of a large western cliental,
(language, travel, lodging, etc..) it would be to their benefit.
We all want to get our hair back but how many times have you read posts by people who impulsively got some treatment (PRP, Acell, transplant) from a practitioner who they feel did not fully inform them of the possible problems with the procedure.
Regardless of what most of us think about the Aderans/Bosley connection their network is a far better model to bring the therapy to a waiting public.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Dr Ziering
How do these exploratory case studies fit into the phased trial studies that will commence in a few months ? Is it an early start of the trials or to test a range of protocols that will be used in the trials
cheers
The purpose of these case studies is to begin to explore expanded treatment regimens of HSC administration in the clinical setting. While these individual case studies are separate from the Phase I/II beginning in Singapore this Spring, they will provide additional information about administration and dosing which will be useful as Histogen begins design of its Phase III HSC trial.

Doc Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Dr Ziering i have another question.

You said something about 25 hairs per 0.1cc injection. I am not familiar how i can set this in relation to anything else.

Could you perhaps give an example in what relation we can put this. I really dont know under what circumstances 0.1cc are much and under what circumstances 0.1cc is almost nothing.

And does this mean that you got 25 hairs at an areal of 2mm times 2mm? If so, this does mean you got your natural hairdensity or am i wrong.

And another question, do you see some significanc in hair appearance like the new hair looks somehow more youthful and healthy when compared to donor area.

Maybe those are stupid questions but they help me to understand the relations here.

Also iam impressed that Histogen is going for the full frontal right now 50+ injections Holy Crap. And also wow four weeks, i didnt really expect anything from Histogen by lets say end of 2011 the earliest.

Thanks for your patience
Each injection is small, quite similar to the size and volume per injection for botox and dermal fillers. In the pilot trial, each 2cm2 treatment area received 4 0.1cc injections, so an average of roughly 100 new hairs were seen per 2cm2 treatment area in the HSC sites. This amount of new hair growth is not only significant statistically, but is also considered cosmetically significant – this level of new growth would produce a visible difference if treating an entire region of hair loss. Hair thickness and density also significantly increased in the pilot trial.

Doc Z

[gmonasco]

I am saying that if a they had a Histogen owned and operated clinic that could deal with the intricacies of a large western cliental (language, travel, lodging, etc..) it would be to their benefit.

It might be more to their benefit (and ours) if they invested their time, money, and resources in continuing development of the product and securing approval for it in western countries rather than trying to set up and operate clinics on the other side of the globe.

[fontanajul]

Hey Doc Z, when I get back home to LA for the summer... I'd be MORE than happy to have you give me as many HSC treatments as you'd like. =)

-Max

PS- Seriously. haha

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I can't speak for Dr. Ziering, of course, but the point is that the length of the approval process in Asian countries is significantly shorter than in North America, and there's not much Histogen can do about that fact. So, even though some patients may have trepidation about traveling to Asia for such a procedure, it's a better option than having no choice at all. Would anyone be better served if Histogen refrained from making their product available anywhere in the world until it had secured U.S. regulatory approval?
That is correct . The reason to go to Asia is the shorter approval process there but this will also give us the data and experience we will need to move the US trials along as fast as possible.

Doc Z

[mlao]

All the best hair transplant clinics in the world take the things I spoke about into account.
How can we be sure a doctor from a different culture no matter how well they are trained in western medicine and practices will hold themselves culpable to the patient.
Everyone on this site is jumping for joy over the pronouncements Histogen has been making, even with almost no photographic evidence to back it up.
I dare say that tomorrow if it was available in Chernobyl there would probably be plane loads of guys flying out to get the injections.
I really want this to work and make no mistake I could and would gladly fly to Asia to have it done. I just want to know that when it comes to market there is a health practitioner and company who will stand behind the product and know how to properly advise the patients.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

All the best hair transplant clinics in the world take the things I spoke about into account.
How can we be sure a doctor from a different culture no matter how well they are trained in western medicine and practices will hold themselves culpable to the patient.
Everyone on this site is jumping for joy over the pronouncements Histogen has been making, even with almost no photographic evidence to back it up.
I dare say that tomorrow if it was available in Chernobyl there would probably be plane loads of guys flying out to get the injections.
I really want this to work and make no mistake I could and would gladly fly to Asia to have it done. I just want to know that when it comes to market there is a health practitioner and company who will stand behind the product and know how to properly advise the patients.
Anyone administering the treatment would be trained and certified by the company . My suggestion to the company was to use only ISHRS surgeons as the initial pool of doctors to train.
Please note though that the plan would be to treat patients locally in the United States and Europe as well.

Doc Z

[mlao]

Anyone administering the treatment would be trained and certified by the company . My suggestion to the company was to use only ISHRS surgeons as the initial pool of doctors to train.
Please note though that the plan would be to treat patients locally in the United States and Europe as well.

Doc Z

Thanks Dr. Zering I think you see my point with this.
It would be great if some doctors in Asia were ISHRS certified but that's
up to Spencer not you. Thanks again for the response.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks Dr. Zering I think you see my point with this.
It would be great if some doctors in Asia were ISHRS certified but that's
up to Spencer not you. Thanks again for the response.
For clarification these are two different organizations....
ISHRS and IAHRS(Spencer's)

[mlao]

For clarification these are two different organizations....
ISHRS and IAHRS(Spencer's)

I stand corrected.

[RichardDawkins]

Thanks for asking the questions Dr Z

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Thanks for asking the questions Dr Z
It is my pleasure . I want the same things that most of you want as well.

[Westonci]

Hello Dr. Ziering I have a question about the timeframe in the future.

Hopefully Histogen HSC comes to market in 2013-2014 however the exact date is anyones guess at this time.

However When do you think Histogen will set a diffinitve date? 6 months before release? 1 year before release?

[UK_]

It is my pleasure . I want the same things that most of you want as well.

Dr Ziering I am not sure how much data you have on how the body receives, processes then extracts the wnt 7a, but I would be very greatful if you could help me answer the following questions:

Regarding the mechanism of the wnt 7a, I understand that it is a signalling protein, but how does it exactly work to keep the hair stimulated for so long? Does the wnt 7a stay within the hair follicle constantly signalling hair growth? Or does it stimulate ("wake up") the 'dormant' cells in the scalp and is then extracted/metabolised by the body? If the latter is true, then I guess the safety of the product is greatly enhanced right?

Thanks.

[montrose]

Would these injections grow hair in a donor scar after an FUT strip surgery?

[HelpROGER]

For clarification these are two different organizations....
ISHRS and IAHRS(Spencer's)

Too bad there are no IAHRS doctors in Asia. I would be a little nervous going to a doctor who is not endorsed by Kobren, but I guess this not surgery:) Dr. Ziering will these doctors be trained by you?

[HairTalk]

Is Histogen seeking participants for its H.S.C. study?

Thanks.

[UK_]

Too bad there are no IAHRS doctors in Asia. I would be a little nervous going to a doctor who is not endorsed by Kobren, but I guess this not surgery:) Dr. Ziering will these doctors be trained by you?

Regarding administration of the HSC... Perhaps they may develop a topical solution (I doubt it however), in the research released at the beginning of January by University of P the issue highlighted the issue as a problem of 'faulty stem cells'. We can be exposed to androgens for decades before we even start going bald; the issue is with the 'factory' that is the stem cells, we just need a compound to fire up the stem cells (easier said than done), and get the factory stem cells to start churning out DP/PROTG cells again producing healthy hair.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Too bad there are no IAHRS doctors in Asia. I would be a little nervous going to a doctor who is not endorsed by Kobren, but I guess this not surgery:) Dr. Ziering will these doctors be trained by you?
That is likely Histogen's plan

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Is Histogen seeking participants for its H.S.C. study?

Thanks.
No not at this time .

[HairTalk]

No not at this time .

Is there any way by which to be notified when and if Histogen is seeking subjects for an upcoming clinical trial of H.S.C.?

Thank you.

[KeepHoping]

I have a few questions for you Dr. Ziering. First off, do you believe with confidence that HSC has the capability of restoring a full head of hair to original or at least close to original density? Second, if the results of the original trails of HSC showing thicker hairs and a higher hair count were a result of restoring "dormant" follicles do you believe a transplant would impact the dormant follicles of the scalp and therefore hurt HSC's ability to work efficiently? Last, will there be a trail where you would consider including trailists who have taken propecia?

Thank you so much for taking an active stance on this forum, it means a lot to me and I would imagine to a lot of other users as well.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Is there any way by which to be notified when and if Histogen is seeking subjects for an upcoming clinical trial of H.S.C.?

Thank you.
I can let Spencer know.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

I have a few questions for you Dr. Ziering. First off, do you believe with confidence that HSC has the capability of restoring a full head of hair to original or at least close to original density? Second, if the results of the original trails of HSC showing thicker hairs and a higher hair count were a result of restoring "dormant" follicles do you believe a transplant would impact the dormant follicles of the scalp and therefore hurt HSC's ability to work efficiently? Last, will there be a trail where you would consider including trailists who have taken propecia?

Thank you so much for taking an active stance on this forum, it means a lot to me and I would imagine to a lot of other users as well.
I have a few questions for you Dr. Ziering. First off, do you believe with confidence that HSC has the capability of restoring a full head of hair to original or at least close to original density? I really cant say yet because we still dont know if a series of injections over a specific time period will have an addative or sustaining effect or both.

Second, if the results of the original trails of HSC showing thicker hairs and a higher hair count were a result of restoring "dormant" follicles do you believe a transplant would impact the dormant follicles of the scalp and therefore hurt HSC's ability to work efficiently? No , I think this effect can be addative.

Last, will there be a trail where you would consider including trailists who have taken propecia? Unlikely for early Clinical trials since it would potentially bias the study but at some point we would like to see the effects of various combination therapies.

[HairTalk]

I can let Spencer know.

Yes, please; thank you. If you need any information from me to forward, for this purpose, please just let me know.

Thanks again, Dr. Ziering.

[nature]

Hello!!
I have a question for you Dr. Ziering.
Are you going to increas together dosage of HSC and number of injections, or just one thing from that.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Hello!!
I have a question for you Dr. Ziering.
Are you going to increas together dosage of HSC and number of injections, or just one thing from that.
We are comfortable with the concentration but will alter the number of injections and time interval between treatments.

[UK_]

Acell may be acting in a similar fashion to the components of the HSC that directly create angiogenesis, instead of using the VEGF etc could the component to promote the angiogenesis actually be Acell?

i.e. Acell+WNT7A+PRP

[RichardDawkins]

Wowo you go full frontal you wanna be Elvis or something :-)

[CAlex]

Hell Dr Ziering.

First thank-you for spending so much time answering all of the questions you receive on here.

I have a question which I hope you can answer. Do you know what area was being measured in Histogens first trial? It had statistics of an increase of 84 hairs after 1 year on patients who got the hsc injections!

I am trying to find over what area/2 that data is about. 2 cm2 1 inch/2 ??? etc http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm (about 1/5 down the page is what I refer to)

also if you are allowed or feel confident. how many hairs per cm/2 Histogen may be able to produce when all is said and done?

I dont expect it to be able to recreate original density but do you think 50 new hairs/cm2 is in the ballpark??

Thank you Dr. Ziering

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Hell Dr Ziering.

First thank-you for spending so much time answering all of the questions you receive on here.

I have a question which I hope you can answer. Do you know what area was being measured in Histogens first trial? It had statistics of an increase of 84 hairs after 1 year on patients who got the hsc injections!

I am trying to find over what area/2 that data is about. 2 cm2 1 inch/2 ??? etc http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm (about 1/5 down the page is what I refer to)

also if you are allowed or feel confident. how many hairs per cm/2 Histogen may be able to produce when all is said and done?

I dont expect it to be able to recreate original density but do you think 50 new hairs/cm2 is in the ballpark??

Thank you Dr. Ziering
The area measured is 1.47 cm2

[CAlex]

thank you for posting the area in which the data was regarding :P

im new, so does that mean histogen was able to produce roughly 56 NEW hairs per cm/2?

If so that is extraordinary and I cant wait to see what happens with the next set of trials results. Even if 56 new hairs/cm2 is the max number that this hsc formula is ever able to produce imo that is still such a breakthrough. If those numbers can be reproduced consistently over a larger area it would by far be the best treatment ever available :)

[UK_]

The area measured is 1.47 cm2

This is why im so excited about HSC - nothing has ever, proven to produce so much hair in such a small area, just imagine if this compound is applied to say a larger sq area of the scalp.

[RichardDawkins]

Even right at this point they could easily put it on the market, thats really something.

My prediction or hopes are, if it can produce this yield right in this early tests, it should be possible to reverse the hair status to at least 90% or your original density.

But i dont know and i dont think it will work on extensive scar tissue. But if it works i say Respect

[Nina]

Dr. Ziering,
regarding trials for women, will the treatment be based on the same principles as for men?
Will you be waiting for men trials to end first or?
If trials for men finish with good results, why women couldn't take the same treatment (as is the case with Rogaine 5%)?
More and more women have problems with hair loss, not to mention children. It's even more devastating. So we'd also like the treatment the soonest possible.
Thank you

[CVAZBAR]

This is why im so excited about HSC - nothing has ever, proven to produce so much hair in such a small area, just imagine if this compound is applied to say a larger sq area of the scalp.

Hitzig with Acell and Ziering with Histogen are supposed to report news on results soon and I cant wait.

[UK_]

Hitzig with Acell and Ziering with Histogen are supposed to report news on results soon and I cant wait.

Same here, haven't been this excited to see the onset of spring in years lol.

[HairTalk]

Does anyone know when results are expected to be posted?

[Gubter_87]

I believe Dr. Ziering said he would be posting some kind of initial results from an exploratory study in about three weeks.
But what results are Dr. Hitzig planning on sharing with us in the near future?

[CVAZBAR]

I believe Dr. Ziering said he would be posting some kind of initial results from an exploratory study in about three weeks.
But what results are Dr. Hitzig planning on sharing with us in the near future?

Dr. Hitzing recently replied on another thread stating that he has some new exciting news. Not sure what it is but he said he would hope to BLOW OUR MINDS haha. That shit better be good haha.

[UK_]

Dr. Hitzing recently replied on another thread stating that he has some new exciting news. Not sure what it is but he said he would hope to BLOW OUR MINDS haha. That shit better be good haha.

thanks CVA ...you got a link to the thread by any chance?

[gmonasco]

you got a link to the thread by any chance?

Here's the post:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=23012&postcount=396

I don't think his statement that "Sorry you haven't been blown away by the results, but the results are the results to date. Hope to blow you away in time." indicates that he has something amazing to announce in the near future. He's just expressing his hopes that things will pan out someday.

[UK_]

Here's the post:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=23012&postcount=396

I don't think his statement that "Sorry you haven't been blown away by the results, but the results are the results to date. Hope to blow you away in time." indicates that he has something amazing to announce in the near future. He's just expressing his hopes that things will pan out someday.

Yeah... he hopes to blow us away - lol.

Honestly, when he talks about 'saving hair' I just feel annoyed for the damn options you have for doing so... PROPECIA lol - I wouldn't touch the stuff - for one... as soon as you come off whatever you retained/regrew you lose within 3 months, couldn't imagine taking an anti-androgen for the next decade or two.

[CVAZBAR]

Well before that he, wrote this - "Sorry not to have posted in a bit but I have been quite busy with my paper and with some exciting new stuff.
Best to all of you

That was before the "Blow your mind" ha.

Im not sure what the first post means. Can we get the translator again?

[UK_]

Well before that he, wrote this - "Sorry not to have posted in a bit but I have been quite busy with my paper and with some exciting new stuff.
Best to all of you

That was before the "Blow your mind" ha.

Im not sure what the first post means. Can we get the translator again?

Think I might shave my head and sandpaper my scalp... DIY HSC procedure lol.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Hell Dr Ziering.

First thank-you for spending so much time answering all of the questions you receive on here.

I have a question which I hope you can answer. Do you know what area was being measured in Histogens first trial? It had statistics of an increase of 84 hairs after 1 year on patients who got the hsc injections!

I am trying to find over what area/2 that data is about. 2 cm2 1 inch/2 ??? etc http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm (about 1/5 down the page is what I refer to)

also if you are allowed or feel confident. how many hairs per cm/2 Histogen may be able to produce when all is said and done?

I dont expect it to be able to recreate original density but do you think 50 new hairs/cm2 is in the ballpark??

Thank you Dr. Ziering
57 hairs /cm2 at one year

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Acell may be acting in a similar fashion to the components of the HSC that directly create angiogenesis, instead of using the VEGF etc could the component to promote the angiogenesis actually be Acell?

i.e. Acell+WNT7A+PRP
HSC stimulates the growth phase of hair by providing a number of unique growth factors and morphogens (not likely found in ACell or PRP at the same identities or quantities as HSC) known to specifically act upon the cells, including the stem cells, of the hair follicle. Promoting angiogenesis alone does not seem to be enough to support the biological activity of long-lasting hair growth -that is one mechanism of action thought to be attributed to Minoxidil – increased blood flow.

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Dr. Ziering,
regarding trials for women, will the treatment be based on the same principles as for men?
Will you be waiting for men trials to end first or?
If trials for men finish with good results, why women couldn't take the same treatment (as is the case with Rogaine 5%)?
More and more women have problems with hair loss, not to mention children. It's even more devastating. So we'd also like the treatment the soonest possible.
Thank you
We will conduct trials on women as well as it is equally promising for men and women.

[HairTalk]

Will you be conducting trials on persons who have had hair-transplants, perhaps including to see whether H.S.C. will stimulate growth in scar-tissue?

Thanks.

[gmonasco]

I remember when Intercytex came out claiming their DP cells induced "significant hair growth" in 4 out of 5 patients, but they totally fell on their Phase II trials.

Therein lies the rub. "Statistically significant" hair growth nay be a useful data point for medical trials, but only cosmetically significant hair growth means a d*mn thing to any of us.

[UK_]

Therein lies the rub. "Statistically significant" hair growth nay be a useful data point for medical trials, but only cosmetically significant hair growth means a d*mn thing to any of us.

Thats right, and Intercytex grew a few dozen fine hairs hardly visible to the naked eye from injecting DP cells, they totally fell, I dont blame the recession, because if any company can come up with the results, survival is not often an issue.

Only time will tell, what is promising is the research conducted by Follica, we still have those stem cells, we dont need to worry about creating/injecting new ones, we just need to identify the specific pathway to promote hair growth again, even if it requires repeat treatments it beats the age-old rubbish we have as options at the moment. I have not met many people who have lasted longer than a few years on propecia, those that come off lose everything they keep - often worse.

Dr Ziering is right, we are all in this together, we all want results, and in all honesty if someone can produce 57 hairs per sq cm and maintain those results for a period greater than two years... then we will reach the finish line, we will reach it.

[fontanajul]

I'm wondering what would be the after effect of going through Histogen injections and then discontinuing use of finasteride. I don't want to be on a pill forever... =/

[UK_]

The body has the ability to regenerate, cut off parts of the liver and it often grows back, you know about cutting off the tip of a child’s finger etc, we even see such regeneration on a bizarre scale in nature, we just need to find out how to minic these phenomena and reproduce them safely in humans, not hardly an easy task however!

[mlao]

I'm wondering what would be the after effect of going through Histogen injections and then discontinuing use of finasteride. I don't want to be on a pill forever... =/

When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again. I have never heard that mentioned again so maybe Dr. Zering can comment. But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of
of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.

[gmonasco]

When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again.

It makes sense that if the effect of DHT is cumulative, new hair follicles should not succumb to it until the passage of an equal amount of time. Probably a longer time, in fact, since testosterone production decreases with age.

But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.

But people here keep telling us that there will never be a hair loss cure, because such a cure would be a one-time treatment that would kill off the market for repeat application products.

[fontanajul]

That's what I was thinking, even though I'm not in any way educated enough on the science to make a comment like that. Ugh I wish I could just fly back home to LA and get my whole head shot up with histogen injections :) (I'm kidding... Sort of)

-Max

[Dr. Craig Ziering]

Will you be conducting trials on persons who have had hair-transplants, perhaps including to see whether H.S.C. will stimulate growth in scar-tissue?

Thanks.
All tissue has potential reservoirs of stem cells, so I would tend to think that
scar tissue is not exempt. It would, of course, take time for the scar to
remodel after stem cell activation to see results.

[UK_]

When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again. I have never heard that mentioned again so maybe Dr. Zering can comment. But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of
of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.

I would love to hear Dr Zierings opinion on this area also, I remember hearing Dr Naughton mention that new hairs would not miniaturize for the same period it took for the previous hairs to minaturize, so if you started balding at 22, the new hairs would last that amount of time.

Perhaps it is not cumulative, but more akin to some type of ticking time-bomb, the 'genetic time-bomb' of hair loss, reason being is that you can be exposed to such androgens for decades before you start balding, and then wham! You are a NW4 within 18 months.

[gmonasco]

Perhaps it is not cumulative, but more akin to some type of ticking time-bomb, the 'genetic time-bomb' of hair loss, reason being is that you can be exposed to such androgens for decades before you start balding, and then wham! You are a NW4 within 18 months.

Actually, men typically start "balding" (in the sense that their hairs are miniaturizing) well before they really start to notice or be concerned about it. I think the "wham" effect is basically the point where they cross an aesthetic threshold and the continuing hair loss becomes really cosmetically significant at that point.

[Jcm800]

Actually, men typically start "balding" (in the sense that their hairs are miniaturizing) well before they really start to notice or be concerned about it. I think the "wham" effect is basically the point where they cross an aesthetic threshold and the continuing hair loss becomes really cosmetically significant at that point.

I tend to agree. I can recall over ten years ago having one hairy hairline, I can remember even then, the first signs of it thinning out.

I never thought any thing of it, but the last five years-it's started to hit the point that I'm very aware of it.

It's been very slow, but gradual in my case.

[RichardDawkins]

My idea :

HSC is manipulating and resetting your follicles. Therefore your hair will get a fresh start and will be permanent for your lifetime, otherwise the results right now would be not like they are.

THe first picture we saw was very goo and consitant with this idea. They treated 4 areas or so and injected only a really small and insignificant portion of HSC and they got around 100 hairs.

My bet is, that the effect of one injection is like the effect on a pont when you throw a stone in it, the waves around the impact are significant but the loose effect after a while.

I thin most hair develop around the injection side and the further away the less new hair was there.

If it turns out tha this is the permanent cure, nobody would go out of business, because there are always people who need their scars repaired or repair cases who need a transpkant etc etc.

But for Histogen, even if you need only one to three injections over a lifespan, they wont go bancrupt or anything else because bald people are permanent, there will always be bald people.

But even if Histogen would be permanent, i would refresh the injections every five years just to be absolutely safe, thats it.

Cosmetically vs statistically significant : I think Dr Zierig stated that the first results were "cosmetically" significant (100 hairs per 2cm2, even a blind person has to admit that this is cosmetically significant)

I think 2011 will be very very very interesting. And if today some people are still saying "Intercytex failed so will Histogen".... i can only say i doubt that this will fail because NOW people are to a certain point knowing HOW you can kick MPB´s ass for good.

Always remember, humans are born with a number of follicles and they die with the exact amount of follicles.

Today in 2011 i can see only two major problems, one concearning HM and one concearning hair transplants.

1) How to get infinite donor (hair transplant side)
2) How to permanently stop hairloss from progresing and get hair regrow

And now compare those two problems with the problems a hairloss sufferer had 15 years ago. I bet 15 years ago there were more questions then today.

From my simple gutfeeling, the first question depends on the fact how you can get plucking mor efficiant and how to perform a FUE with multiplication.

The tools are all availabe but like a puzzle they have to be combined. I can tell you, i would rather live today with a balding problem then 10 years ago or 20.

Why i am so "optimistic"? Simple because all the things have so far come to the point where i expected them to come. And also this community is not "lazy" any more right now a lot of people take action in their hands and demand docs to experiment which is good.

And lets be honest here, most of the people 10 years ago didnt know anything about stem cells or manipulate ****tails to induce some effect on some cells.

Can you guys remeber who everyone was exited when this Sheep Dolly was cloned? In this time this seemed like "Wow how are they gonna do this" and what do we have now? Artificial organs and iPhones :-)

I am really thankfull that Histogen is conduct their trials (trails i always get this word wrong) in Asia because asia in general is the leading culture in biotechnology.

[UK_]

I tend to agree. I can recall over ten years ago having one hairy hairline, I can remember even then, the first signs of it thinning out.

I never thought any thing of it, but the last five years-it's started to hit the point that I'm very aware of it.

It's been very slow, but gradual in my case.

Yeah... I guess so being that even babies can suffer forms of MPB.

[Jcm800]

Yeah... I guess so being that even babies can suffer forms of MPB.

I was around 25 at the time ;)

[mlao]

But people here keep telling us that there will never be a hair loss cure, because such a cure would be a one-time treatment that would kill off the market for repeat application products.

I have never bought into the conspiracy theory with drug companies.
If Merck or Pfizer came up with a superior one time cure they would just
charge for it accordingly.
However it would probably not be covered by insurance which is a huge source of income for them. No doctor is going to tell a patient that they need a hair loss drug to stay alive. I don't even think the big companies care about curing it. Ten years ago when I started using Propecia there were TV ads for it but you don't see any now.
Plus it probably didn't help that the minute it came out everyone started buying 5mg Proscar for BPH or generic Finasteride from overseas and splitting the pills up.

[UK_]

I have never bought into the conspiracy theory with drug companies.
If Merck or Pfizer came up with a superior one time cure they would just
charge for it accordingly.

I think it takes someone to actually be in the field to understand how difficult the process of 'curing' really is; it takes years for any development to make it into the lab, then a decade to market, often longer, especially regarding hair, in which the natural growth cycles will always cause any research to be longitudinal.

[mlao]

I think the best chance of a cure right now does come from the likes of smaller companies like Histogen or Aderans.
Companies like this didn't exist 10 years ago so investors don't have anything to compare it to.
An investor is probably suspicious of a small company trying to cure hair loss but not a huge pharmaceutical that shows huge profits every year.
I think the more proof these small companies can present the quicker it might happen.
I also think that even if it wasn't the NW7 to NW1 cure but a huge addition to the products we already use it would be successful.

[UK_]

I think the best chance of a cure right now does come from the likes of smaller companies like Histogen or Aderans.
Companies like this didn't exist 10 years ago so investors don't have anything to compare it to.
An investor is probably suspicious of a small company trying to cure hair loss but not a huge pharmaceutical that shows huge profits every year.
I think the more proof these small companies can present the quicker it might happen.
I also think that even if it wasn't the NW7 to NW1 cure but a huge addition to the products we already use it would be successful.

Aderans a small company? lol

I cant even remember what the balding research scene was like 10 years ago, as I was entering high school for the first time lol whether there were similar companies to Histogen, Aderans, Follica or new compounds like Acell and PRP, I am guessing it was a sort of 'dark age' in which researchers were all in the theoretical stage, today we are in developmental stages so hopefully in the near future we may enter production/market stages.

I do remember however headlines such as the WNT7A (gene therapy) growing large quantities of life-long hair in mice, at that time they were just drawing up the plans to have it tested in humans, 5 years on and here we are, and the same goes for Aderans.

Anything that is greater than/can compete against Propecia and Minoxidil is a viable marketable development.

[mlao]

Aderans a small company? lol

Almost any big drug company makes Aderans look like a corner store!
You can't compare a company that makes wigs, owns hair salons, and a few large chain hair transplant clinics with Pfizer, Merck, or GSK. In the world of investment there is money and there is BIG MONEY!!!

[Sogeking]

I don't think we have to worry about the drug companies not wanting the cure to be found.
Because new people are born every day and some of them, during their lifetime, will experience MPB or any other form of alopecia. Not to mention all of us now and most of current users of Propecia, just waiting for a cure. iIt would be an instant financial mega boost.

Take into the account the myopia treatments like Laser eye surgery :). They are being offered as a one time treatment :) (don't want to go into their efficacies).

Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested.

So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
Also I don't want to be offensive to Histogen as being, well, greedy or anything like that, if their treatment does what its supposed to, than by all means they should charge for it.
The waiting is killing me...

[UK_]

I don't think we have to worry about the drug companies not wanting the cure to be found.
Because new people are born every day and some of them, during their lifetime, will experience MPB or any other form of alopecia. Not to mention all of us now and most of current users of Propecia, just waiting for a cure. iIt would be an instant financial mega boost.

Take into the account the myopia treatments like Laser eye surgery :). They are being offered as a one time treatment :) (don't want to go into their efficacies).

Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested.

So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
Also I don't want to be offensive to Histogen as being, well, greedy or anything like that, if their treatment does what its supposed to, than by all means they should charge for it.
The waiting is killing me...

Yeah, and you wouldn't feel like a 14 year old girl like one does on Propecia, anything that offers a better treatment than having to block androgens would be more than welcome.

[gmonasco]

Histogen’s lead product application is its Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC), which is a soluble
formulation developed as an injectable for hair regrowth. The hair loss market is both large and
underserved - hair loss affects over 40 million men and 21 million women in the United States
alone, however less than 7% of sufferers currently seek treatment. This is largely due to the
ineffectiveness of currently available options such as Rogaine and Propecia.

Worldwide revenues in 2008 were reported to be $1.3B for surgical treatments, predominantly
hair transplant procedures, $1B for non-prescription treatments such as Rogaine, and $700M for
prescription treatments such as Propecia. Histogen sees HSC as a potential category killer, as
efficacy results far surpass those seen with topical and prescription treatments, and the injectable
form holds many advantages over surgical treatments.

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/histogen_exe_summary_dec10.pdf

[UK_]

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/histogen_exe_summary_dec10.pdf

Definitely a category killer (and by God a welcomed one).

[UK_]

Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested.

So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
Also I don't want to be offensive to Histogen as being, well, greedy or anything like that, if their treatment does what its supposed to, than by all means they should charge for it.
The waiting is killing me...

I know HairTalk raised some viable suggestions on the Acell thread regarding the issue of optimism, but I am by nature one of the most negative people you will come across :cool:. But when I look at the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and their research findings, I cannot help but think - "yes okay, there may be bugs with these new biotech treatments, or indeed maybe none at all" -but we will fix them, and there is an end in sight.

[doinmyheadin]

A question for Dr. Craig Ziering. I read that in the original HSC trials it worked for 85% of people. Im no scientist but if the injections are suppose to produce embryonic like conditions and it works for most people why wouldnt it work for 99.9% of people?

[CVAZBAR]

I know HairTalk raised some viable suggestions on the Acell thread regarding the issue of optimism, but I am by nature one of the most negative people you will come across :cool:. But when I look at the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and their research findings, I cannot help but think - "yes okay, there may be bugs with these new biotech treatments, or indeed maybe none at all" -but we will fix them, and there is an end in sight.

Very true, I just wish it was NOW. I'm tired and feel like giving up hope. I'm at a point where I can't believe shit until I see something work for everyone. Can't get excited anymore but I hope the end is near.

[RichardDawkins]

Tssssss all i know is one thing in a few years everyone here will be like this

"**** this shit why didnt i invest in those companys damn me"

You wanna bet?

[nature]

Uh, no. You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications. That is something which has to be established through testing.
But,if that is truth than we could get full density, that means NW 1.

A question for Dr. Craig Ziering.
What did you think when you said 50+ injections.Does it mean that you are going to inject them all at 2cm2 treatment area or something else?
Are you going to set clinics in some places of Europe earlier (2013.-2015.)?

[gmonasco]

The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.

We're coming up on four weeks -- hope to hear something (good!) soon.

[Purple Glow]

Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect was seen within 2mm of the injection site.

For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area. 2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States. If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.

http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif

In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.

[cannonball]

For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area. 2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States. If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.

http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif

In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.

Oh, but I think its rather 2 square cm, which should be around the third of a square inch...

[KeepHoping]

I think that part of the plug would be one sqare centimeter right?

[Purple Glow]

I think that part of the plug would be one sqare centimeter right?

No, here is an image of one square centimeter proportional to a pencil.
http://www.mathsisfun.com/measure/images/square-cm.jpg

As you can see, that box is much larger than a grounding pin on a 3-prong plug.

[RichardDawkins]

So then, whats the verdict here :-)

Good or Bad. But how did you guys come on 25 hairs, i heared something about 100 hairs :-)

[gmonasco]

I think all the speculation about hair counts is moot until we know:

1) That HSC is actually producing new hairs (rather than merely coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen phase).

2) Whether the effect is compoundable with larger or repeated dosages.

[Purple Glow]

So then, whats the verdict here :-)

Good or Bad. But how did you guys come on 25 hairs, i heared something about 100 hairs :-)

I got 25 hairs from a direct quote from Dr. Z that I quoted in post #193 of this thread.

[mlao]

I think all the speculation about hair counts is moot until we know:

1) That HSC is actually producing new hairs (rather than merely coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen phase).

2) Whether the effect is compoundable with larger or repeated dosages.

Thumbs up to this statement!

[UK_]

I got 25 hairs from a direct quote from Dr. Z that I quoted in post #193 of this thread.

Was it not 84.5 hairs after 12 months? This in an area of 1.46cm2 I believe.

Found this on their website:

Histogen named a Top 300 Startup by fundedIDEAS for 2011! Company successfully completes Series A financing round, and opens Series B, with Phase I / II trial beginning this Spring.

http://www.fundedideas.com/index.html

Congratulations guys!

[CAlex]

Yes UK you are basically correct. an increase of about 84 hairs in a 1.47 cm/2 area was the result in phase 1.

179 hairs baseline to 263 hairs after 1 year. It was basically a 47% increase in new hairs but the studied posted a 70 plus % increase because histogen took into account existing hairs increase in thickness etc.

The only thing in terms of percentages and numbers we need to take from phase 1 is that there was a good result from a SAFETY trial and this method holds much promise.
Phase II will include much more patients in the study with more emphasis on dosages and frequency of shots etc.

Phase II numbers will definitely be much more meaningful even if they still produce only the same hair increase as phase 1. It will show the ability to reproduce the results over a much more extensive patient base and recipient area.

[CVAZBAR]

For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area. 2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States. If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.

http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif

In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.

Excellent idea Purp.

[gmonasco]

Was it not 84.5 hairs after 12 months? This in an area of 1.46cm2 I believe.

I think that number was an extrapolation from what Dr. Ziering said, which was that "an average of roughly 100 new hairs were seen per 2cm2 treatment area in the HSC sites."

[Purple Glow]

1.47 cm/2 is roughly the size of a dime.

[Purple Glow]

Personally I believe the worst case scenario with HSC will be that it permanently stops hair loss and gives you diffuse coverage that you can either keep tight or grow out and add some hair loss concealer like nanogen to add volume. I think that alone would be a major step forward from using rogaine and / or propecia every day.

[RichardDawkins]

This is a very good Worst Case scenario in my books :-)

I would give some additional thoughts. I believe that a hairloss stop is pretty much the case even in this "early" results this seems to backup this claim.

What i think is, that it will work better on your vertex area, because in this area it seems propecia works also better then in the frontal regions.

So the worst case remains

1) hairloss stop but not your original density so additional hair transplant and you are finished for good

I think this is something which everyone could accept.

Dont get me wrong i really belive in Histogen i really do but i wouldnt be crushed if this "worst case" scenario would happen, because primary its important to stop hairloss at all :-)

[Gubter_87]

Come on guys - I know it's easy to get lost in wishful thinking. But I would say that the worst case scenario is rather that it turns out that Histogen causes cancer and does not grow as much hair as it was intially believed to do.
I too have high hopes for this - but there's no point in kidding ourselves about the worst case scenario. There are still a lot of things that can go wrong.

[RichardDawkins]

Oh come on the cancer thing is so 80s :-)

[Bakez]

This is a very good Worst Case scenario in my books :-)

I would give some additional thoughts. I believe that a hairloss stop is pretty much the case even in this "early" results this seems to backup this claim.

What i think is, that it will work better on your vertex area, because in this area it seems propecia works also better then in the frontal regions.

So the worst case remains

1) hairloss stop but not your original density so additional hair transplant and you are finished for good

I think this is something which everyone could accept.

Dont get me wrong i really belive in Histogen i really do but i wouldnt be crushed if this "worst case" scenario would happen, because primary its important to stop hairloss at all :-)Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.

The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.

[HairTalk]

I'll chime in with the bandwagon of cautious hopefuls. Histogen's H.S.C. didn't fall on its ass straight out of the gate, and that's a good thing, but it's only early in 2011. The sole results we all can talk of still were released just during 2010; there are not yet very many data around about the compund.

Just how safe and efficacious is H.S.C.? Will it promote neoplasia? Let's hope not (from what I've read of what the compound consists of, I don't think it will, but that hardly means that nothing, including tumor-formation, can go wrong). Will it really stop balding? Reverse it? In which areas of the scalp? Will it help for just a few years? If so, will "booster doses" help, or will it do no further good in treated patients?

There are many questions yet unanswered. We have reason to be hopeful, but we ought to refrain from celebrating over anything, at this point — H.S.C., ACell, InterCytex, Aderans. All these studies are in relatively early stages; it's foolish to begin rejoicing, already.

[UK_]

There are many questions yet unanswered. We have reason to be hopeful, but we ought to refrain from celebrating over anything, at this point — H.S.C., ACell, InterCytex, Aderans. All these studies are in relatively early stages; it's foolish to begin rejoicing, already.

Intercytex? Have they started trials for hair loss now?

[UK_]

Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.

The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.

lol@diatribe.

I'm gettin' real tired aswel of Richard Dawkins/Stevie.Dee's blind over-inflated drugged enthusiasm, I've a feeling one day he might be forced to bite a very hard bullet...Rememer Shh? lol.

[HairTalk]

Intercytex? Have they started trials for hair loss now?

I know they dropped out of it (hair-multiplication research), but I thought they were starting back up — I could be wrong about the latter.

http://www.***************/hair-loss-blog/intercytex-takes-a-dive-the-end-of-hair-multiplication-cloning-research/

From the above Web site: "While they appeared to have good management and promising preliminary results, their subsequent Phase II testing on humans failed to produce cosmetically significant hair regrowth."

This sort of thing happens over and over. I'm not suggesting we thus should figure nothing ever will work out, but that it likely would be healthy to somewhat curb our collective enthusiasm.

*Why the hell can't one insert U.R.L.s into one's messages in this forum? It's absurd we should be disallowed to cite sources on a site such as this.

[HairTalk]

The next hit in a Google search:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/03/prweb3774184.htm

[mlao]

Aderans bought the research that Intercytex developed.

[UK_]

The next hit in a Google search:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/03/prweb3774184.htm

lol... well, if it fails we still have this:

http://www.amazon.com/Regeneration-Subliminal-Neurolinguistic-Programming-imbedded/dp/B000PM93FQ

Cells only form into certain tissue if they grow within the scaffold of the construct they plan to develop into, thus you can only grow follicles if you have a follicle scaffold drained of all cells to leave only the scaffold structure, (as follicles are organs) stem cells, growth factors may then be introduced and develop into full follicles. Stem cells from the back of the scalp would need to be used to take advantage of the fact that they are neutral to the impact of androgens, the hairs must then be planted into the scalp. They have adopted this concept for years here to grow new hearts and other organs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/07/building.new.urethras/?hpt=C2

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/stemcell-technique-may-end-need-for-heart-donors-986842.html

[CVAZBAR]

Wish I was 10 yrs younger.

[Gubter_87]

Oh come on the cancer thing is so 80s :-)

You obviously don't really have a clue what you're talking about here so I'll give you a quick run through. What histogen are actually trying out is to inject WNT-proteins, which stimulate stem-cell differentiation, into the scalp. And obviously the first thing that comes to mind when interfering with such a delicate system is an increased risk of cancer.

Now, Dr. Ziering has said that the initial results have showed no major side effects, which is good news, but that does not mean there is still no risk or that this might not backfire anytime soon.

You are obviously optimistic about future treatments like histogen and A-cell, which is good. But right now I think you just might be spreading a bit to much unsubstantiated hope to people on this forum. Hopefully both histogen and A-cell will turn out to be very usefull treatments in the end. But that does not mean that ignoring the possible backdraws that comes with the treatments is a good idea.

[UK_]

Exactly, shh also signalled new hair growth, but all animal subjects went on to form tumours.

[Sogeking]

So the guy is optimisic. It is his right, you know. The only worry here for optimistic people is if there expectations aren't met. So thats why we're here.
At first I was very optimistic about Histogen and its potential, but after some time I've became a sceptic. With every possible treatment not just Histogen.


I do think that in 2-3 years we will know for the most part if these cutting edge/future treatments are viable for last stages of testing and distribution.

[RichardDawkins]

Exactly, shh also signalled new hair growth, but all animal subjects went on to form tumours.

Ok do you have links for those claims? I guess not

I really dont care if you guys have problems with my "positive" attitude, i rally dont because there is always a front of people who just want to enjoy their self pittying.

Its funny when even repair patients are more happy in life then some "The whole world is bleak" guys lurking around.

And should i really discuss with someone like UK_ who didnt even know anything about Intercytex or Bakez who cycles all hairloss boards to repeat the one question "Everything Failed" all over again?

And iam not optimistic (even if it would be my right, but clinic shills cant grasp this) iam more realistic. Just realistic and rational.

You know if you let dictate guys like UK_ or Bakez what you have to be, then you seriously need more then just hairs.

As you may have read, there is actually one patient who got plucked hairs transplanted into his scar and UK_ just ignores that with his Cole statement " Show me the science"

Well its difficult to show people like you the science when you close your eyes and als trolling around.

You said in forums you never take anything personal, but you do because you have to use stuff like " RichardDawkins/Stevie.Dee bla bla crap" what does this contribute? Exactly nothing.

Here are some nice efforts even without MYSELF answering anything at first, how UK_ (an obvious troll) tries to destroy a normal thread :

1) Troll acting number one : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604

And guess what, who is the first person to answer UK_ postings? Right its Bakez (a system?)

2) Spoken like a secret clinic rep http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604&page=2

You know to give the impression that Acell didnt work and people should get normal hairtransplants instead.

3) Nobody can explain how, HOW Acell works : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604&page=3

Well didnt people actually explain how a ECM works, that it keep tissue from healing and instead forces it to create normal tissue without scarring?

Also this site is interesting because he uses the same tactic someone would use to discredit special clinis, he uses the indirect/direct thing " Some docs from NY who...."

Also further down you get a grip of what he is doing here, only trolling because statements like "baaaaaahhaaaaa how many times have we heard this" are only stupid and they distract from the case itself.

Just look at how this whole thread turned out, at first there were serious and matter related questions, but then UK_ got into and everything turned into a mess where the case itself wasnt the main thing anymore :-)

And you guys keep attack me for my "positive" thinking?

Also when he gets outed here, he uses the fog tactic to draw away attention from him, as you can see in the last posting.

Thats why i didnt response in the beginning, i just wanted to see and later show people here, how threads turned out when guys like UK_ are involved.

I wouldnt wonder if he is another HairRobinHood Account to annoy people. You know guys scepticism is good, if its on a realistic level but mindless destroying and downtalking everything is just utterly stupid.

Everyone who is interested in HSC or ECM should just gather himself informations and form his own point of view here.

I remain of course realistic optimistic because its my right, and if some 23 year old Bakez has a problem with that (i can understand you to a certain point because you are somehow young and desperate etc but you wont have to live your 30s being bald, that is highly unlikely, you can beliv this or not, its your decision) well then they have to live with that.

[Purple Glow]

Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.

The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.

I'm not worried about long-term side effects with this product. I have not read anything about the mice getting tumors from HSC. There were no side effects seen in the test so far, and this product isn't something that is an artificial implant, nor has to constantly be applied daily. Its injected once, and then its just simply your hair.

Results could go one of three ways.

1. They may not be repeated.
2. They may be repeated exactly.
3. They could get better at using this technology and improve results.

Either 2 or 3 is acceptable, imo.

[Purple Glow]

From a business and marketing standpoint, the fact that Histogen has stated they want to focus on this being an inexpensive treatment that the masses have access to tells us they are very confident in the product.

If you have a product you think is not that great and is something people will sour on eventually, you don't waste your time worrying about access to the product.

However, if you truly believe the product is going to be something everyone wants, you aim to make it as affordable as you can because where you make the real big money is on volume sales. They seem to be expecting there will be a lot of demand.

[Purple Glow]

Also keep in mind Phase I was a low-dose test to just look for side effects. The fact that Phase I showed an average gain of 84 hairs per 1.47cm2 was gravy. That's what you want to see in a winning product - results that exceed expectations. I think we should be optimistic.

[RichardDawkins]

Why be optimistic? This are only 84 hairs. So where is the science? :-)

Just kidding. You are right. HSC did right now win compared to Propecia and Minox because all of them or lets make it more accurate slowed down hairloss (HSC seems to stop it instead of slowing it down)

And as a bonus with HSC hair did regrow, something missing in Fin and Minox.

Also you are right, mass market is the key here.

Hey Iron.Man another screencap for you

[nature]

Also keep in mind Phase I was a low-dose test to just look for side effects. The fact that Phase I showed an average gain of 84 hairs per 1.47cm2 was gravy. That's what you want to see in a winning product - results that exceed expectations. I think we should be optimistic.

With increasing dosage HSC would probably get better results,not worser.It was low dosage of HSC on a spot with thinning hair (preclinical safety trials).Question is,what results can we expect on completely bald spots?So if they can get these results (50-80 new hairs per 1.47 cm2)on bald spots whit every new injection then we could get almost "normal" density.That is optimism!
But if we expect that HSC would stop our progress hairloss on some time (2-5 years)for one treatment and could get us some more density then i think that is very realistic.

[Jcm800]

UK_ is very good at jumping on a thread and attacking people on it!

He jumped on the TRX2 thread and called us all 'retards' a couple of weeks back, and let rip!

In fairness, bar the retards comment I feel he probably had some good points about it tho.

[UK_]

Ok do you have links for those claims? I guess not.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9349822?dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9212109?dopt=Citation

"Overexpression of Shh can induce BCCs in mice."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16389455

"Abnormal activation of the Hedgehog pathway has been demonstrated in a variety of human tumors, including those of the skin, brain, lung and digestive tract. Hedgehog pathway activity in these tumors is required for cancer cell proliferation and tumor growth. "

Here you go you, next time before you decide in typing out another SOUL DESTROYING post like that do the research yourself.

As you may have read, there is actually one patient who got plucked hairs transplanted into his scar and UK_ just ignores that with his Cole statement " Show me the science".

Still beating yourself up over that? Seriously, let it go, its boring now. I told you before, your gonna most likely have to bite a tough bullet in the near future if these "revolutionary" biotech cures bite the dust - have fun talking to me when it happens :cool:.

Here are some nice efforts even without MYSELF answering anything at first, how UK_ (an obvious troll) tries to destroy a normal thread :

1) Troll acting number one : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604

And guess what, who is the first person to answer UK_ postings? Right its Bakez (a system?)

2) Spoken like a secret clinic rep http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...?t=4604&page=2

You know to give the impression that Acell didnt work and people should get normal hairtransplants instead.

3) Nobody can explain how, HOW Acell works : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...?t=4604&page=3".

Wow... you really did go to some trouble here lol. How sad.

Just look at how this whole thread turned out, at first there were serious and matter related questions, but then UK_ got into and everything turned into a mess where the case itself wasnt the main thing anymore :-)".

I wouldnt wonder if he is another HairRobinHood Account to annoy people. You know guys scepticism is good, if its on a realistic level but mindless destroying and downtalking everything is just utterly stupid.

I think you are just beating yourself up over the fact that I know you are the user stevie.dee on hairsite, its an obvious one really - ye both have the same deluded fluffy-brained views about the promise of all these revolutionary biotech treatments. How on EARTH can you accuse me of being a fake/repeat account? LOL I can assure you, I am not, and I am certainly not "Iron_man" as you keep suggesting. Ask youself how many such treatments for the likes of cancer, heart disease and liver disease have gone through the same process of start-up, trial and failure, even in phase III. You're banking on a ver very very very big outcome on a small shred of hope, seriously, thats the reality - like it or lump it.

And please, can you keep your damn posts within the 1 paragraph limit.

[RichardDawkins]

First of all, even with knowing iam Stevie.Dee you are really late. Everyone knows and nobody cares for nicknames. But keep on put your effort in nicknames it will make your life easier...i guess.

To your studies :

1) 1997
2) Mice
3) CAN and WILL are two different things
4) Also it states clearly that it is not the only or solely factor, but you missed to quote that.

Soul Destroying? What are you talking about?

Yes iam still talking about this scar patient because you keep glueing at this

Dr Cole´s statement is accurate stuff. As long as you stick with that, i will stick with this patient. End of Story

No i didnt get in trouble quoting you or show links to your discussion style, i just wanted to show what people here should expect from someone like you. Its not sad at all, as long as it keep people think for themselves and not fall for an obvious clinic rep who remains anonymous.

Nobody cares for alternative nicknames from myself actually, but people do care for some trolls who jump on everything promising and destroy it. And you showed us exactly this kind of impulsive childish behaviour. Registered in february and almost all of your postings contain attacks, downtalking of new ideas, insults to people, like using the word retard.

It is in fact pretty obivous that your agenda is a foul one. You jump on every thread which involves new stuff to attack it. But the only time you did not was in the "Germans created artificial follicle" one. Well if i would guess i say its because those things wont run your clinic out of business so soon, but Acell or Histogen could.

And then i think, hmm Acell has not yet been approved in europe, so its highly unlikely that european clinics are happy with patients asking for an Acell treatment, so they are vivid in downtalking this.

I saw this on some european hairloss boards, which was vers strange at first but then it was just like we should expect it to finally pan out.

No i will write my postings like i wanna write em live with that because i also accept your "god damn" postings as they are.

I think you really have a problem with people being positive in life right :-) thats your problem not mine. I think we have all the reasons in the world to look into a bright future.

[UK_]

First of all, even with knowing iam Stevie.Dee you are really late. Everyone knows and nobody cares for nicknames. But keep on put your effort in nicknames it will make your life easier...i guess.
.

But that's not my bloody point! You harp and harp and blabber on about how I am someone else in a disguised account, you have accused me so far of being atleast three other people, you have accused me of representing some clinic, that I am here, on my own in all my glory to destroy the entire face of Acell research.

ARE YOU F***** SERIOUS?

To your studies :

1) 1997
2) Mice
3) CAN and WILL are two different things
4) Also it states clearly that it is not the only or solely factor, but you missed to quote that.

What has the date got to do with it? Seriously? In this context, the plausability of the data/study is not affected in any such way by the date of the study. If I injected your brain with SHH signalling proteins, you will have the same outcome as if I did it in 1967. I cannot believe you can actually type out that post and not realise that?

Soul Destroying? What are you talking about?
.

Unremittingly monotonous.

Dr Cole´s statement is accurate stuff..

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And PLEASE PLEASE can you shorten your posts?

[RichardDawkins]

No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that.

You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear, so do you to a certain point, when we consider repeating one sentence all over again to be a valid argument.

Yes of course i said to you that you are different persons, to show you that its just not relevant in his discussion about Acell or Histogen (you started this nonsense with StevieDee etc and it just backfired)

Oh the date btw has something to do because you discredit the study about plucking hairs with exact the same things i did to yours :-) And again you outed yourself as a troll (not only because of you broken Caps Lock Button)

If there is no science behind, why didnt other docs comment on this matter so far? Only Dr Cole and he is quiet right now.

I really like your efforts to sound educated, but in the end you come up as an average troll who lost his temper.

Next time you quote me, do it right, i didnt say Dr Cole is right, i say as long as you stick with this old statement of him, i will stick to the patient with plucked hairs in his scar.

I say Dr Coles statement is not accurate nor is it an honest one because he did not back his easy said claims up. And he never commented on this matter again, so this shows me, that he has no interest in back up this claim anymore, or otherwise he wouldnt use Acell as a PRP therapy etc.

I am very sorry that your Acell Destroying depressed point of view has shattered like a mirror falling from the third floor. But thats the fact here, Dr Cole said it doesnt work, but one patient said it did work. So the best (for your position) is to admit 1 : 1 (if you dont wanna lose your face)

I wont shorten my postings because sometimes its very good to fully express what you think in a certain situation. Unless Dr Cole didnt prove to us, that it didnt work, his statement remains an hasty early one without fully get the facts right.

Why dont you just ask for pictures instead of poisoning all Acel threads? Are you to proud to ask for pictures or more informations?

Anyway just explain to me, why other clinics and docs keep experimenting with Acell ( you said this is not working) but why are they experimenting with this then? And its not only a hand full of docs it seems to me at least that there are more and more willing to use it.

Why is that? Can you explain this? Also why is it that big names use it right now? They even adopt this faster, then some docs switched from FUT to FUE.

I am actually not turning in circles here, i really wanna know how you can explain these things. I really dont take your attacks or whatever it is too personal, it amuses me in some way, because the more i have to think about some things like Acell and Histogen, the more you can see whats nonsense and whats realistic, because you really work with that and you do research yourself.

You cant compare a brain with hairs or so.A brain is much much much much more complex then a hair. Also the scale is another one.

[Bakez]

No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that.

You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear, so do you to a certain point, when we consider repeating one sentence all over again to be a valid argument.

Yes of course i said to you that you are different persons, to show you that its just not relevant in his discussion about Acell or Histogen (you started this nonsense with StevieDee etc and it just backfired)

Oh the date btw has something to do because you discredit the study about plucking hairs with exact the same things i did to yours :-) And again you outed yourself as a troll (not only because of you broken Caps Lock Button)

If there is no science behind, why didnt other docs comment on this matter so far? Only Dr Cole and he is quiet right now.

I really like your efforts to sound educated, but in the end you come up as an average troll who lost his temper.

Next time you quote me, do it right, i didnt say Dr Cole is right, i say as long as you stick with this old statement of him, i will stick to the patient with plucked hairs in his scar.

I say Dr Coles statement is not accurate nor is it an honest one because he did not back his easy said claims up. And he never commented on this matter again, so this shows me, that he has no interest in back up this claim anymore, or otherwise he wouldnt use Acell as a PRP therapy etc.

I am very sorry that your Acell Destroying depressed point of view has shattered like a mirror falling from the third floor. But thats the fact here, Dr Cole said it doesnt work, but one patient said it did work. So the best (for your position) is to admit 1 : 1 (if you dont wanna lose your face)

I wont shorten my postings because sometimes its very good to fully express what you think in a certain situation. Unless Dr Cole didnt prove to us, that it didnt work, his statement remains an hasty early one without fully get the facts right.

Why dont you just ask for pictures instead of poisoning all Acel threads? Are you to proud to ask for pictures or more informations?

Anyway just explain to me, why other clinics and docs keep experimenting with Acell ( you said this is not working) but why are they experimenting with this then? And its not only a hand full of docs it seems to me at least that there are more and more willing to use it.

Why is that? Can you explain this? Also why is it that big names use it right now? They even adopt this faster, then some docs switched from FUT to FUE.

I am actually not turning in circles here, i really wanna know how you can explain these things. I really dont take your attacks or whatever it is too personal, it amuses me in some way, because the more i have to think about some things like Acell and Histogen, the more you can see whats nonsense and whats realistic, because you really work with that and you do research yourself.

You cant compare a brain with hairs or so.A brain is much much much much more complex then a hair. Also the scale is another one.What is your point? Seriously?

[RichardDawkins]

That its very boring to read all the time depressing stuff only for the sake of downtalking something. Especially when it comes from guys who hijack all the New Invention threads and come up with one statement that has not been talked about anymore.

Also it is very very "stupid" to attack people because they are more optimistic then your average depressed hairloss sufferer.

But hey why dont you two guys share your Email adresses, so that you can switch mails with all the negative stuff :-)

You guys can talk as much negative stuf as you like it wont stop the progress

[UK_]

No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that..

So then, why on earth do you keep stating that I am here to do just that? You have just answered your own question:rolleyes:. On numerous occasions now you have accused me of being here to 'conspire' against the success of such treatments. I have been trying to convince you of how crazy an assumption that really is, I merely stated that Dr Cole's critique was accurate and correct, to which you have finally come to terms with. Well done:cool:. Took a while but we got there in the end.

You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear

So what is your point? lol - if boards are here to for us to openly discuss opinions and matters regarding happenings in reality, why on earth do you feel the need to sledgehammer every last one of my comments?:rolleyes:

I am very sorry that your Acell Destroying depressed point of view has shattered like a mirror falling from the third floor. But thats the fact here, Dr Cole said it doesnt work, but one patient said it did work. So the best (for your position) is to admit 1 : 1 (if you dont wanna lose your face)

How on earth has my "Acell destroying depressed point of view" shattered like a mirror? (1) I do not maintain a "depressed point of view" I merely stated that Dr Cole's statement was an accurate one, that is what this entire discussion is about, I have also merely pointed out that we cannot get too optimistic about HSC because we all know what happend with SHH...

I think people (especially myself) are getting very bord of your long dreary posts, please kindly shorten them to one paragraph, I dont mean to patronize (lol) but learn how to conflate your argument into structured paragraphs please.

I say Dr Coles statement is not accurate )

Make your mind up - for Gods sake - do you think it is an accurate statement or not? Obviously IT IS because there is NO EVIDENCE to prove contrary, which is why if you read my INITIAL comment, I used the term REMAINS ACCURATE.

IT REMAINS ACCURATE

IT REMAINS ACCURATE

IT REMAINS ACCURATE

Anyway just explain to me, why other clinics and docs keep experimenting with Acell ( you said this is not working) )

This STILL has no bearing on Dr Coles comment, IT REMAINS AN ACCURATE ONE - please for the love of the mother of all Gods of the heavens UNDERSTAND THAT DR COLES COMMENT - NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WISH TO TELL YOURSELF -REMAINS ACCURATE.



There could be a number of reasons why Dr Cole hasn't posted yet, he could be saving a cat stuck up a tree, but I highly doubt his reason for not posting lately is the unbearable embarrassment he will face due to the shocking, awe-inspiring current progress made by the researchers studying the use of Acell.

Conclusion

Nothing you can say will refute Dr Coles comment, no amount of "oh this surgeon believes in this" "oh that surgeon has achieved that" will suffice to refute that comment.

Try as you might, you will fail.

P.S. I think the term is 'lose face', and with all due respect, I couldn't care less about my 'status' in the eyes of others regarding my comments on this site ;).

[UK_]

That its very boring to read all the time depressing stuff only for the sake of downtalking something. Especially when it comes from guys who hijack all the New Invention threads and come up with one statement that has not been talked about anymore.

Also it is very very "stupid" to attack people because they are more optimistic then your average depressed hairloss sufferer.

But hey why dont you two guys share your Email adresses, so that you can switch mails with all the negative stuff :-)

You guys can talk as much negative stuf as you like it wont stop the progress

Mr Happy Tyrant.

[KeepHoping]

It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....

That aside, I wanted to ask you Dr. Ziering, if WNT proteins seem to be the golden ticket here as a growth factor for hair growth why do you think doctors haven't tried to incorporate WNT proteins into their PRP solutions as a growth factor. Does that kind of work require an FDA clearance? Second, will Histogen post the pictures of the 2 year results from the first safety trail? You mentioned earlier that they had still retained all the hair two years post procedure, if so that's incredible. Finally, was there some type of small pre phase 1 trail that is going to be put up as well? I'm very excited for your research and results and I believe this could be the answer for many people dealing with hairloss.

Thank you in advance.

[UK_]

It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....

You try getting a point across to this guy - DHT will be the least of your worries.

[mlao]

It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....

That aside, I wanted to ask you Dr. Ziering, if WNT proteins seem to be the golden ticket here as a growth factor for hair growth why do you think doctors haven't tried to incorporate WNT proteins into their PRP solutions as a growth factor. Does that kind of work require an FDA clearance? Second, will Histogen post the pictures of the 2 year results from the first safety trail? You mentioned earlier that they had still retained all the hair two years post procedure, if so that's incredible. Finally, was there some type of small pre phase 1 trail that is going to be put up as well? I'm very excited for your research and results and I believe this could be the answer for many people dealing with hairloss.

Thank you in advance.

Yeah it would be great if Dr. Zering could ignore some of the infighting and answer questions from some of the less vocal forum members.

[UK_]

Yeah it would be great if Dr. Zering could ignore some of the infighting and answer questions from some of the less vocal forum members.

We should just have a separate thread for all our arguments lol.:D

Can the moderator not delete some of our posts to clear it up a little?

[CVAZBAR]

C'mon guys, I understand people have differences and you argue here and there but you guys are ****ing up the threads. You guys should just privately contact each other and maybe put on some gloves and beat each other up. Then Ill probably go watch :D haha.

[RichardDawkins]

UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure.

Anyway using lol and smiley seems very ridicolous to me, you should stop with this its painful to read.I am actually more interested in seeing those promised resuls after four weeks, when it was said some time ago. Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much. Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective. Because iam not one of those "Yeah lets all be sad guys who use Smileys and LOL but in the night i cry bitter tears because i loose hair"

Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.

And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).

Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.

You just have to ask yourself the question " Why do grafts survive even if you maybe hit them hard and transect them"? the key is in fact the tissue with the genetic material which surrounds the hair (i mean the hair as a result and not the follicle itself only the visible hair). Also it is possible not to extract the whole hair and follicle STRUCTURES and provide hair regrow in the donor area with this technique.

The worst part here is, that Dr Cole in fact has some key elements for this to work, but i think he needs a little bit of motivation. Just remember, he uses his CIT by extracting follicles but not as deep like the normal FUE , also he witnessed new blood vessels after he uses Acell on this area.

So now just put all your hatred for my persona aside for one second and think this through.Try to imagine what would happen if you not stance out the whole follicle and his structure but instead you extract only the vital parts for hair to survive (tissue etc) and use an ECM for recipient and donor side and also "feed" the plucked or harvested hair with it.

What do you personally believe will happen? Thats a legitimate question, what do you personally believe? And then you will see why Dr Coles statement is more sad in a way for hairloss sufferers then it is accurate. I think the sad aspect of unused potential outweights everything else.

[UK_]

UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure....


When you stop blabbering on about whatever point it is you are trying to make, ill stop using icons :Dk?

By the way... What IS your point?

Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much,


Well, you did call it "accurate stuff" how else am I supposed to interpret it? lol.

Your quote:

Dr Cole´s statement is accurate stuff...

What on earth? Make up your bloody mind Stevie.Dee.

Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective....

So why do you have a problem with literally EVERYTHING I say on these forums? Why do you have an issue with me agreeing with Dr Coles statement? LOL:D

I did not come and talk to you, you came and decided to quote/respond to me, so you are the one who is attacking my position on Acell, I asked you to prove my position wrong, which you failed to do so... so what on earth else do you want from me?:cool:

Seriously: What do you want? and What is the point of your posts?

Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.

And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).

Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.

You just have to ask yourself the question " Why do grafts survive even if you maybe hit them hard and transect them"? the key is in fact the tissue with the genetic material which surrounds the hair (i mean the hair as a result and not the follicle itself only the visible hair). Also it is possible not to extract the whole hair and follicle STRUCTURES and provide hair regrow in the donor area with this technique.

So now just put all your hatred for my persona aside for one second and think this through.Try to imagine what would happen if you not stance out the whole follicle and his structure but instead you extract only the vital parts for hair to survive (tissue etc) and use an ECM for recipient and donor side and also "feed" the plucked or harvested hair with it.

What do you personally believe will happen? Thats a legitimate question, what do you personally believe? And then you will see why Dr Coles statement is more sad in a way for hairloss sufferers then it is accurate. I think the sad aspect of unused potential outweights everything else.....


BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH YADDA YADDA YADDA YADDA YADDA ...

Me thinks you are obsessed with hair loss, you need counselling.

[Bakez]

UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure.

Anyway using lol and smiley seems very ridicolous to me, you should stop with this its painful to read.I am actually more interested in seeing those promised resuls after four weeks, when it was said some time ago. Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much. Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective. Because iam not one of those "Yeah lets all be sad guys who use Smileys and LOL but in the night i cry bitter tears because i loose hair"

Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.

And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).

Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.

You just have to ask yourself the question " Why do grafts survive even if you maybe hit them hard and transect them"? the key is in fact the tissue with the genetic material which surrounds the hair (i mean the hair as a result and not the follicle itself only the visible hair). Also it is possible not to extract the whole hair and follicle STRUCTURES and provide hair regrow in the donor area with this technique.

The worst part here is, that Dr Cole in fact has some key elements for this to work, but i think he needs a little bit of motivation. Just remember, he uses his CIT by extracting follicles but not as deep like the normal FUE , also he witnessed new blood vessels after he uses Acell on this area.

So now just put all your hatred for my persona aside for one second and think this through.Try to imagine what would happen if you not stance out the whole follicle and his structure but instead you extract only the vital parts for hair to survive (tissue etc) and use an ECM for recipient and donor side and also "feed" the plucked or harvested hair with it.

What do you personally believe will happen? Thats a legitimate question, what do you personally believe? And then you will see why Dr Coles statement is more sad in a way for hairloss sufferers then it is accurate. I think the sad aspect of unused potential outweights everything else.Can you please just shut up, you ruin every thread and reduce the chances of a real Dr actually posting something useful when they see this sort of crap on the forum.

[mlao]

i really miss Fixedby35

[LarryDavid]

SHUT UP both of you.
This is a Thread to talk about the interview and to talk to Craig Ziering. I dont think all your spam encourages him to talk here anymore.
Lets just wait for the pictures Ziering was talking about.

[mlao]

SHUT UP both of you.
This is a Thread to talk about the interview and to talk to Craig Ziering. I dont think all your spam encourages him to talk here anymore.
Lets just wait for the pictures Ziering was talking about.

A sane voice at last!

[RichardDawkins]

Well if both of you guys UK_ and Bakez dont understand this, well then i doubt that any doc here can give you guys an answer you will understand. Because thats exactly what current day hair multiplication is about, nothing more nothing less.

If you say that this is blah blah well i highly recommend you both guys to really leave hairloss boards :-) because you dont know anything about hair at all.

@ Bakez if you would be a person with half a functioning brain you would have seen in the past that Dr Hitzig did in fact agree with my ideas or what i was understanding about the whole situation ;-)

I dont think i ruin a thread here because i try to get you stubborn 23 year old pessimestic crybaby to finally realize what possible solutions are you know. And you know what destroys thread? People who say stuff like Bla Blah Yadda Yadda cause it contributes nothing at all.

I dont reduce the chance of docs actually answering here my friend, the opposite is the case because all my questions so far were answered why you keep on crying and post crazy crap at hair site which also shows me that you are not willing to understand just simple things.

Should i refresh your 23 years old memory Bakez? Ok then here we go

1) This was a Bakez response to Iron.Man who just started a thread with questions regarding Dr Hitzig, i have to admit the qzestions were packed in too much text but thats Iron.Man and its ok

Bakez: " You post is basically impossible to read. Shut the **** up. I think the ACell thing will fail as well, but I don't feel the need to write walls of meandering text and basically personally attacking Doctors.

Shut up and wait. Why is this guy still on the forum? "

The question here remains, why does Bakez register in february at hair site only to insult someone with the first posting (also this matter was Acell related)

2) In response of Dr Hitzigs Acell PRP fotos

Bakez : " I'm sorry, but these photos provide nothing other than enhancing my suspicions that this is just another massive swindle. "

But now its getting really interesting. Just remeber Bakez was saying that Hitzigs Acell PRP is a swindle. But guess what what he said when it comes to Dr Cole :-)

3) Who is cheering things up here?

Bakez : " DEFINITELY go with Dr Cole.

Dr Cole is the only person who has been posting absolutely clear and concise findings on ACell. Dr Hitzig is just posting sensationalist speculation, and the photos he displays are open to question - the ones Dr Cole has posted definitely aren't open to question and are as clear as day.

Dr Cole appears to also have vast (ie as much as anyone else at the moment) experience with ACell, he just hasn't done the plucking procedure trials. ( WAIT WHAT? I was under the impression that Dr Cole was against Acell and very sceptical so how can he be someone with vast experience)

If you would have been 95% close to having a transplant anyway even if this ACell thing hadn't come up, then go with Dr Cole. I see no reason to disbelieve Dr Cole's claims like I do with Hitzig. (Odd that Bakez gives no conclusive evidence WHY he believes Dr Cole and not Dr Hitzig)

Also my question is, what fotos are those two guys here refering to? The one single FUE foto with blood vessels?

Anyway its getting better and better

4) Now its getting interesting for a 23 year old hairloss sufferer who just has begun to gather informations he seems very confident.

Bakez : " Dr Hitzig has posted little evidence, its just speculation and dubious photos. He might be telling the truth but we dont know. (WE? more likely you alone because it seems that you didnt really pay attention to the scientific papers but ok you are 23 years old and in the beginning of a long journey at least in your case)

What we do know with Dr Cole is that you will get world class transplant regardless whether the ACell works, and he has posted no questionable photos with ACell, he documents scientifically and with no bias and what he has shown is exciting, but he still remains conservative in estimations (ie if he hasn't seen it happen with proof, then he won't claim 'the cure is almost here' like Hitzig seems to have). Therefore if it is anyone who you should trust it is Dr Cole. Infact he is the only Dr on that thread that I trust.

Well, well very smart for someone in the beginning :-) am i right

And now to the final part of our Bakez Journey

5) Bakez in action : " Forget about Hitzig for god sake. Just say to Dr Cole, give me a hair transplant and use ACell to see if you can get some extraction site regrowth. You will get a top class hair transplant anyway, as good as anywhere else in the world, and maybe some donor regrowth/good healing, and with a Dr that will scientifically evaluate the results.

Let Hitzig continue posting dubious photos if he wants."

Well i think you guys have to choose a side for real, on the one hand you guys say Dr Cole does document everything very well but on the other hand he has no interest in actually try plucking or FUE/CIT multiplication because he says "Where is the science"

And i know why you guys want me to shut up, because at least i stick with my opinion here.

Also your answers did show me one thing you guys are not mature and never will be. Because what Bakez has said in number 5) is exactly what i asked him to think about donor regeneration :-)

I think UK_ and Bakez you officially diqualified yourself from every credibility here, without my help i have to say.

I am not obsessed with hairloss but with the things how to actually overcome this, if it would be otherwise i would act like Bakez who, to me is the prime example of some desperate youngster who will sooner or later do something very bad. It al starts in general with hasty actions and the unwillingness to think straight for one second about your hair and its characteristics.

If you would actually take one second to think about what i wrote, you really would have answered a lot of questions yourself and then you would realize that in fact the whole " Where is the science" thing from Dr Cole is in fact more devastating for hairloss sufferers in general.

And this is a statement which remains true, i think Bakez will realize this someday and he will regret some of his postings, thats for sure.

My apologies to all readers here who feel offended or bored, but i think some things should be discussed in a serious and mature way without insulting people are answer with blah blah yaddah yaddah. This shows only that no one of you guys is actually willing to get along peaceful with this community here. I tried to teach you guys to a certain point what and how you could get infinite donor and you guys didnt listen to it so its your problem.

[UK_]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

It just never ends with this guy.

However Richard, I must inform you that nothing in your previous post comes even close to refuting Dr Cole's statement:D. Try Harder.

Seriously, you need help, these treatments are not designed to help the insane.

[RichardDawkins]

Go on with your opinion. But i think it seems odd when you browse at Dr Coles site and just look at the latest or prominent featured Acell articles here.

1) January 2011 : Someone seems very enthusiastic http://www.hairlosspress.com/date/2011/01/

2) For Bakez and his Acell Fail storys : http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic1794-10.html

3) How do you explain the 92% with Acell usage vs 0% without using Acell http://www.forhair.com/Articles/Growth_Rate_of_Body_Hair_Obtained_by_FUE_and_the_B enefits_of_Acell.htm

4) And here thats funny : http://www.forhair.com/News_Release/New_Hair_Transplant_Treatments_2010.htm

it clearly says the following " .....In the future, it is possible that ECM could be used to re-grow extracted hair, potentially providing patients with an unlimited donor supply......

So why is his statement accurate again, when the opposite thing is prominently featured on his website ;-) Where is the science that he still features this hmm guys. Bakez do you have anything to say with regards to " Acell fails" no? Why not? Damn those 92% beard hair yield, right ;-)

Btw what Dr Cole says in one of the links above is exactly what i was aiming for